Can i not be Christian and Saved?

[Garee]

Dear @Soyeong,

My apologies that I am rather "late to the party" here, but your statement above just caught my eye, and I was wondering about how you would understand the following verse:

(Acts 5:30-32 KJV) The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.​

Thank you kindly,
Rhema

I would offer the God of the fathers and not the fathers as gods . (Roman Catholicism)

We are empowered to do both hear and also empowered to do the will of God who remain unseen without form . Without both hearing and doing no man could please God.

The key is both to will and do to according to his good pleasure .Yoked with him it becomes a mutual work of his good pleasure .

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Remember he that has no needs satisfied all .


As informed in Job 23. is of one mind and is not served by human hands as a will . He alone makes the heart of those born again from above soft with the water of His word Doctrines inspired from above empowered here on earth

Job 23:10-16 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Simply ask oneself . . .who makes your heart soft ?

 

[Rhema]

Torah

( Not all Torah is Torah. )

Rhema

 

[Soyeong]

( Not all Torah is Torah. )

Rhema

That is contradictory.

 

[Rhema]

The Pharisees knew the law of God inside and out, the law of Moses. But they missed something that was very important, it was completely overlooked.....

Yeah... it was this part...

(Jeremiah 8:8 DRB) How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pens of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.​

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

That is contradictory.

Not according to Jeremiah...

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, "We are wise, and the Torah of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it (theTorah) into a lie?​

Torah's been messed with. That's why God sent His Son.

Rhema

 

[Garee]

Not according to Jeremiah...

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, "We are wise, and the Torah of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it (theTorah) into a lie?​

Torah's been messed with. That's why God sent His Son.

Rhema

Why so you think it's been mesed over. Was something added or taken away from it? How did sending his Son solve the problem ?

 

[Rhema]

Why so you think it's been mesed over. Was something added or taken away from it? How did sending his Son solve the problem ?

The better question should be why did God declare through Jeremiah that the Torah was altered, but I'll allow Jeremiah to speak for himself.

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV) For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

How did sending his Son solve the problem ?

(Matthew 5:21-22 NRSV) "You have heard that it was said ... But I say to you ..."​

(There's a whole bunch of them.)

 

[Garee]

The better question should be why did God declare through Jeremiah that the Torah was altered, but I'll allow Jeremiah to speak for himself.

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV) For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

(Matthew 5:21-22 NRSV) "You have heard that it was said ... But I say to you ..."​

(There's a whole bunch of them.)

If you would call adding to it with the oral tradition of men . Then changing by adding to meaning to a word can alter .

Yes many a whole bunch that do add as a way of taking away from the intent of the one author Christ. Rather than obeying the loving commandment rightfully divide or interpret.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Let me ask it in another way.
After a person IS saved,is that person now a christian,or no?

Word games!!!

If a person has been BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit by FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, and has been indwelled by the Holy SPirit, as ALL "born again" people are, then the person has passed from DEATH into LIFE - i.e. the "Got Saved". A necessary aspect of this would be HEAVEN as an eternal destination upon Physical death.

"Christian" is the "normal" descriptive term for that altered spiritual state.

Of course the label "Christian" is ALSO applied to people who are nothing more than "Religious" based on an intellectual assent to "Biblical principles", and "Biblically oriented practices", and who at least give "lip service" to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure. Spiritually, however, this doesn't mean SPIT, and provides NOTHING of eternal significance.

"Christian", then is "Just a word" that is loosely applied to any number of conditions - like "Faith", and "Love". Essentially meaningless without adding context. A Born Again person could be called a "Blefascue", and still be heaven bound. when they die.

 

[Rhema]

"Christian" is the "normal" descriptive term for that altered spiritual state.

Of course the label "Christian" is ALSO applied to people who are nothing more than "Religious" based on an intellectual assent to "Biblical principles", and "Biblically oriented practices", and who at least give "lip service" to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure.

Word games!!!

Yep.

 

[Bill]

Word games!!!

If a person has been BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit by FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, and has been indwelled by the Holy SPirit, as ALL "born again" people are, then the person has passed from DEATH into LIFE - i.e. the "Got Saved". A necessary aspect of this would be HEAVEN as an eternal destination upon Physical death.

"Christian" is the "normal" descriptive term for that altered spiritual state.

Of course the label "Christian" is ALSO applied to people who are nothing more than "Religious" based on an intellectual assent to "Biblical principles", and "Biblically oriented practices", and who at least give "lip service" to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure. Spiritually, however, this doesn't mean SPIT, and provides NOTHING of eternal significance.

"Christian", then is "Just a word" that is loosely applied to any number of conditions - like "Faith", and "Love". Essentially meaningless without adding context. A Born Again person could be called a "Blefascue", and still be heaven bound. when they die.

I think Paul does a good job explaining the concept of a true Jew when he's talking to the Christians of his time. " a true Jew is not one that looks like a Jew or has the circumcision, a true Jew is one who has the circumcision in his heart"

I think Paul was pointing this out to the Christians at the time to explain to them what a true Christian is. That a true Christian is not one who is outwardly a Christian, or a person that yells on the rooftops that he is a Christian and that Jesus Christ is the Lord and savior. What Paul is trying to say is that a true Christian is one whose heart has changed, whose heart is pierced with love for God.

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah... it was this part...

(Jeremiah 8:8 DRB) How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pens of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.​

Rhema

In order to know that the lying pends of the scribes have brought falsehood they needed to know what the original was, and if they knew the original, then we don't have any reason to think that what we have has been altered. If they were able to alter the text, then they would not have included that accusation that it had been altered.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT and the authors of the NT did this thousands of times in order to support what they were saying and to show that they had not departed from it, so if we can't trust the OT, then we also can't trust the NT. For example, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed it as still being authoritative. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture in order to see if what he said was true, so according to that precedent, disagreement with the OT is the standard by which we should reject what was taught in the NT, but everything taught in the NT is in accordance with what was taught in the OT.

(Matthew 5:21-22 NRSV) "You have heard that it was said ... But I say to you ..."

Whenever Jesus quoted Scripture, he preceded it by saying "it is written...", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being said about Scripture, he preceded it by saying "you have heart that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. In other words, Jesus was not correcting what was written, but what they had heard wrongly being taught. This is also evident by the fact that everything that he said after "but I say unto you..." is in accordance with the OT while not everything that he said after "you have heard that it was said..." was in accordance with the OT. For example:

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While it is correct that OT Scripture instructs us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not instruct us to hate our enemy, but rather loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22. Likewise, in regard to Matthew 5:21-22, we are instructed not to hate our brother in Leviticus 19:17, so Jesus was not making changes to what was written or teaching anything brand new, but rather there has never been another person whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT.

 

[MedicBravo]

I see people hear professing to be saved by the grace of God.
But then say they are not christian,that they dont act like chrristians,and even that they hate christians.
The way scripture reads,i would think if claim not to be christian,dont act like a christian,dont like christians period.....you are lost and undone and a fearful judgments awaits.

The actions of others do not dictate yours.
For them they are one of two:
Fallen Christians who were at one point but the "things of this world" have become more attractive." OR
Were never Christian to begin with. The bible calls out False Converts many times. They "went through the motions and said the prayer, expecting those to be some "magical ritual" and their lives would immediately get better. How wrong they are.
In fact, these people found out how hard it is being a Christian in this evil, sinful, perverted world and are too afraid to: Voice their concerns to other Christians and ask for help and/or lie about being one to all but their Christian "friends".
In fact, you would be shocked to hear them say they are and they believe based on counteractive lifestyles.

 

[Rhema]

In order to know that the lying pends of the scribes have brought falsehood they needed to know what the original was, and if they knew the original, then we don't have any reason to think that what we have has been altered.

Jeremiah did. Jeremiah knew what the original was. God told him....

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV) For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

But yes, we do have reason to believe that the texts had been altered. Why? Because Jeremiah said so.

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, "We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

Now YOU may want some perfect ancient Holy Book, but that was not God's intent. Why? Because Jeremiah said what God would do about this...

(Jeremiah 3:15 NRSV) I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.​

Why would God need to do this if the Torah was perfect? (Why was there a need for a Good Shepherd?) Why was there a need for a New Covenant?

(Jeremiah 31:31-34 NRSV) The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the LORD," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.​

And Jeremiah even warned them about those who say, "we don't have any reason to think there's a problem," and "everything is all good," and "we know what we speak of."

(Jeremiah 14:13-14 NRSV) Then I said: "Ah, Lord GOD! Here are the prophets saying to them, 'You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you true peace in this place.'" And the LORD said to me: The prophets are prophesying lies in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.​

Why else would the Father need to send the Son if the Torah was not broken?

Even the Son told you why...

(Matthew 5:17 GRK) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to Mend.​

But Please, I ask you to please respect my words....

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

Let me know if you decide to start a thread. But PLEASE do not reply here. Or if you wish you may send me a PM, although it's likely you've already made up your mind and just wanted to "ding me" here. (Which is okay.)



( I said please.)

 

[Br. Bear]

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

Good idea,

thank you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Bill]

The actions of others do not dictate yours.
For them they are one of two:
Fallen Christians who were at one point but the "things of this world" have become more attractive." OR
Were never Christian to begin with. The bible calls out False Converts many times. They "went through the motions and said the prayer, expecting those to be some "magical ritual" and their lives would immediately get better. How wrong they are.
In fact, these people found out how hard it is being a Christian in this evil, sinful, perverted world and are too afraid to: Voice their concerns to other Christians and ask for help and/or lie about being one to all but their Christian "friends".
In fact, you would be shocked to hear them say they are and they believe based on counteractive lifestyles.

There is a third type. A person who was a serious believer, but through a variety of events chooses another path. i.e. Judas also the firm Christians that fall to the Mark of the Beast. ( be very hard to refuse it when your children are all crying because of hunger)

 

[Bill]

Jeremiah did. Jeremiah knew what the original was. God told him....

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV) For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

But yes, we do have reason to believe that the texts had been altered. Why? Because Jeremiah said so.

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, "We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

Now YOU may want some perfect ancient Holy Book, but that was not God's intent. Why? Because Jeremiah said what God would do about this...

(Jeremiah 3:15 NRSV) I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.​

Why would God need to do this if the Torah was perfect? (Why was there a need for a Good Shepherd?) Why was there a need for a New Covenant?

(Jeremiah 31:31-34 NRSV) The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the LORD," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.​

And Jeremiah even warned them about those who say, "we don't have any reason to think there's a problem," and "everything is all good," and "we know what we speak of."

(Jeremiah 14:13-14 NRSV) Then I said: "Ah, Lord GOD! Here are the prophets saying to them, 'You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you true peace in this place.'" And the LORD said to me: The prophets are prophesying lies in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.​

Why else would the Father need to send the Son if the Torah was not broken?

Even the Son told you why...

(Matthew 5:17 GRK) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to Mend.​

But Please, I ask you to please respect my words....

ANY future discussion should really be in a different thread, so I'll stop replying here. Just consider it "food for thought."

Kindly,
Rhema

Let me know if you decide to start a thread. But PLEASE do not reply here. Or if you wish you may send me a PM, although it's likely you've already made up your mind and just wanted to "ding me" here. (Which is okay.)



( I said please.)

What do the other text say , on the same subject. We have discussed before how different text have different translations.

Like the KJV versus New Jerusalem etc.

 

[Bill]

The actions of others do not dictate yours.
For them they are one of two:
Fallen Christians who were at one point but the "things of this world" have become more attractive." OR
Were never Christian to begin with. The bible calls out False Converts many times. They "went through the motions and said the prayer, expecting those to be some "magical ritual" and their lives would immediately get better. How wrong they are.
In fact, these people found out how hard it is being a Christian in this evil, sinful, perverted world and are too afraid to: Voice their concerns to other Christians and ask for help and/or lie about being one to all but their Christian "friends".
In fact, you would be shocked to hear them say they are and they believe based on counteractive lifestyles.

Lol , indeed, yet they do. Counter or alt lifestyles who are opposed to scripture, will use the very scripture that is against them to afirm them.

It is a little nuts

 

[Garee]

Lol , indeed, yet they do. Counter or alt lifestyles who are opposed to scripture, will use the very scripture that is against them to afirm them.

It is a little nuts

The Father of lies is nuttier than a fruit cake .

Sola scriptura (as it is written ) is the final authority of God in any generation . . . needed to restore the government of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God working with redeemed mankind. to both reveal his will and empower us to perform it yoked with Him...( Philippians 2)

I would offer that when the metaphor three is used in parallels .Three denotes the end of a matter throughout the word of God . By the witness of one no judgement can be made .

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

The father of lies uses the word of God. Just as with the Pharisees with Sadducees as antichrists called a law of the fathers dying mankind. , Making Jesus the Son of man into a circus seal.

In effect saying. . . Work a miracle then when we see it with our own eyes then we will believe,.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Below the father of lies called legion set up the false challenge . God's Holy Spirit that worked in the Son of man cannot be tempted .

Satan demanding God to create though Jesus .As a lying spirit he had no idea who the Son of man was or what he could do.. He was not subject to salvation.

Matthew 4 :3-4 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus again assured of the power of the faithful Creator yoked with our Holy Father. . . Our Holy father Father gave Jesus the prophet words of power to rebuke the spirit of error. .

Matthew 4 :7-9 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Matthew 4 :10-12 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

Strike three . .struck him out , Never saw the faster than the speed of light (faith. . . as it is written ball . back to the bottomless dug out.

The ministry of two as it is writen did prevail against the gates of hell .

But no so with Peter who like others were seeking after signs before they would believe the false interpretation as false prophecy accompanied with the the father of lies . Peter was clearly given word not Not of the flesh which included his own having no power living in earthen bodies of death that will return to the dust .


Matthew 16: 1_19 King James Version1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departedAnd when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter thought his flesh and blood was the it (gospel) that the gates of hell could not prevail against .

Sola scriptura made up of two witnesses OT and NT . . it remains the reforming, restoring key in any generation or family as a tribe that gather together under one word as it is written .The sword of the Spirit . . . we put on the whole armor .

Same two spoken of in Revelation

Revelation 11 2-4 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.