Can i not be Christian and Saved?

[Curtis]

1Jn 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us. (NLT)

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19; "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
Luke 10:20; "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[Rhema]

There is a third type. A person who was a serious believer, but through a variety of events chooses another path. i.e. Judas also the firm Christians that fall to the Mark of the Beast. ( be very hard to refuse it when your children are all crying because of hunger)

The church has struggled with this since the Donantists in 311.

Donatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rhema]

What do the other text say , on the same subject.

There is only one text... it says this:

(Jeremiah 7:22 Hebrew OT) י לא־דברתי את־אבותיכם ולא צויתים ביום הוציא אותם מארץ מצרים על־דברי עולה וזבח׃​

I have found the NRSV to be extremely reliable in translating Hebrew. But one may certainly take a gander at Biblehub's Hebrew Interlinear.

Jeremiah 7:22 Interlinear: For I did not speak with your fathers, Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,

biblehub.com

For not I-did-speak to your-fathers or command-them in-the-day that-I-brought them out-of-the-land of-Egypt concerning burnt-offerings or-sacrifices.

(Jeremiah 7:22 YLT) For I did not speak with your fathers, Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 KJV) For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 Brenton) For I spoke not to your fathers, and commanded them not in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice:​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 DRB) For I spoke not to your fathers, and I commanded them not, in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning the matter of burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

And since you like the Jerusalem Bible...

(Jeremiah 7:22 JB) For when I brought.your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I said nothing to them, gave them no orders, about holocaust and sacrifice.​

Of course discussions about this verse (and I've heard numerous excuses as to why the text doesn't mean what it says) .... please let's move that to a different thread.

Kindly,
Rhema

( I said please....)

 

[Rhema]

Sola scriptura (as it is written ) is the final authority of God in any generation . . .

Jesus was the final authority of God in Jesus' generation.

Sorry, Garee, Jesus did NOT say, "Sola Scriptura is the way, the truth, and the life."

He just didn't.

Rhema

 

[Bill]

There is only one text... it says this:

(Jeremiah 7:22 Hebrew OT) י לא־דברתי את־אבותיכם ולא צויתים ביום הוציא אותם מארץ מצרים על־דברי עולה וזבח׃​

I have found the NRSV to be extremely reliable in translating Hebrew. But one may certainly take a gander at Biblehub's Hebrew Interlinear.

Jeremiah 7:22 Interlinear: For I did not speak with your fathers, Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,

biblehub.com

For not I-did-speak to your-fathers or command-them in-the-day that-I-brought them out-of-the-land of-Egypt concerning burnt-offerings or-sacrifices.

(Jeremiah 7:22 YLT) For I did not speak with your fathers, Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 KJV) For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 Brenton) For I spoke not to your fathers, and commanded them not in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice:​

​

(Jeremiah 7:22 DRB) For I spoke not to your fathers, and I commanded them not, in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning the matter of burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

And since you like the Jerusalem Bible...

(Jeremiah 7:22 JB) For when I brought.your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I said nothing to them, gave them no orders, about holocaust and sacrifice.​

Of course discussions about this verse (and I've heard numerous excuses as to why the text doesn't mean what it says) .... please let's move that to a different thread.

Kindly,
Rhema

( I said please....)

Thank you .

Just a note. Todays text and those written 30 years ago will read differently. Something i noted

 

[Garee]

Jesus was the final authority of God in Jesus' generation.

Sorry, Garee, Jesus did NOT say, "Sola Scriptura is the way, the truth, and the life."

He just didn't.

Rhema

It would seem to be one of those sufferings doctrines .apologetics defending that which defends us in the unseen world. The armor of God.

Sorry the father gave Jesus the Son of man as a prophet/apostle as it is written. . three time in order that the Father working in the son rebuke the father of lies. .

Jesus the Christ or anointing Holy Spirit . Not Jesus the son of man who became a born again son of God ..

1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Jesus the first born again of many sons of God our brother in the lord gives us comforting words from the Father . Not as I will but you Holy Father the one with power to raise from the dead and rebuke lying spirits .

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Ins

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[Butch5]

Eternal God is not a man as us.

Actually the word Christ(anointer) is not a person but is a teaching authority coming from the Father . Jesus the Son of man does not have a surname as Christ .Christ meaning the anointing power that God pours out on his children yoked with him.

Jesus like Joshua meaning savior is a attribute (not flesh and blood) .

Joseph the father of Jesus and his brothers and sisters there father's name was Jacob or Heli, depending if you are using Matthew or Luke. So Joseph would have been known as “Joseph son of Heli .

Today we are lovingly commanded to call no man on earth father what works for the Son of man Jesus as a born again son of God works for us today

Agreed, God is no a man. However, Jesus is a man. The word became flesh.

Actually, the Christ is a term used of the kings of Israel. King Saul was the Lord's Christ.

David and his men remained in the sides of the cave. 4 And the men of David said unto him, Behold the day of which the LORD said unto thee, Behold, I will deliver thine enemy into thine hand, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good unto thee. Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul’s robe privily. 5 And it came to pass afterward, that David’s heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul’s skirt. 6 And he said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD’s anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Sa 24:3–6.

Saying Jesus is the Christ is an acknowledgement that Jesus is the King.

 

[Butch5]

1Jn 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us. (NLT)

John is referring to the Gnostics in that passage

 

[Curtis]

John is referring to the Gnostics in that passage

There were and there still are in the Church today people who consider themselves to have a "higher knowledge" than anyone else which in turn comes out as "false revelations" False teachers who look like the real thing but have a "fake" faith". These people come and go from every kind of true Church. They were never a part of the true Church because if there were they would have never left. Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, and emotional approach to truth without using the scriptures

 

[Butch5]

There were and there still are in the Church today people who consider themselves to have a "higher knowledge" than anyone else which in turn comes out as "false revelations" False teachers who look like the real thing but have a "fake" faith". These people come and go from every kind of true Church. They were never a part of the true Church because if there were they would have never left. Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, and emotional approach to truth without using the scriptures

That may be, but John was addressing a specific group of people. He used the past tense, not the future tense.

 

[Garee]

Agreed, God is no a man. However, Jesus is a man. The word became flesh.

Actually, the Christ is a term used of the kings of Israel. King Saul was the Lord's Christ.

David and his men remained in the sides of the cave. 4 And the men of David said unto him, Behold the day of which the LORD said unto thee, Behold, I will deliver thine enemy into thine hand, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good unto thee. Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul’s robe privily. 5 And it came to pass afterward, that David’s heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul’s skirt. 6 And he said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD’s anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Sa 24:3–6.

Saying Jesus is the Christ is an acknowledgement that Jesus is the King.

Hi thanks for the reply.

The words of the Father were revealed through the Son of man, Jesus our brother in the lord.

Jesus as the son of man is considered the chief apostle (messenger), chief prophet . . . 1st born of many born again sons of God . (believers). . Jesus is the prophet that all other prophets made mention of coming to outwardly demonstrate the work of two . . .the love of the Holy unseen Father working in Jesus . . . to both . . . reveal and empower dying mankind.. .

Yes, Jesus as the Son of man was a man as a prophet sent as the chief apostle . . .Again. . He spoke the words of our unseen anointing Holy Father, as it is written..

Saying the Son of man, Jesus is the Lord of lords as the one good teaching master is the abomination of desolation .

Mankind seen. Popes as daysman “fleshly infallible umpire called a daysman) that sits having approval of both between temporal mankind seen and the eternal things of God not seen. . . in the place of our unseen Holy God .(abomination of desolation )

Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

A precursor of the wrath of God working demonstrated by the temporal things seen (the dying flesh) of our brother in the Lord Jesus which he declared profits for zero (John 6) . What did profit is Christ pouring out His Spirit life .His eternal words."Let there be" are spirit and spirit life given .


His tongue alone can bring new spirit life the power of both. The daily bread as manna . .yoked with Christ our daily burden can be lighter with a future living hope beyond the grave. .


The wrath of God comes against those who worship the corrupted creatures flesh more than the invisible Holy Spirit of God.

Note below . . (purple) my added commnet hoping to focus on the unseen glory of the lord.that will be reveled on the last day under the sun .

Romans 1: 22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, (Jesus) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:5 Who changed the truth of God (not seen) into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (seen) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen

 

[Bill]

That may be, but John was addressing a specific group of people. He used the past tense, not the future tense.

I understand where you are coming from, but you missed the comment , " who consider themselves to have a higher power" as if they are above anyone else. And that would be false.

I have many unusual Gifts, but it does not make me greater than a person who is called to constant prayer. In fact, it is those called to a life of prayer who are the greatest, in my mind. The do not experience anything more than prayer, yet thier faith is strong.

If one has faith to eat veggies, and another faith to eat anything, does that make one greater than the other? Of course not.

And to be honest, it is not completely about faith either, it is about love. As faith alone is only a gong clanging in the wind.

Love is the key

 

[Butch5]

I understand where you are coming from, but you missed the comment , " who consider themselves to have a higher power" as if they are above anyone else. And that would be false.

I have many unusual Gifts, but it does not make me greater than a person who is called to constant prayer. In fact, it is those called to a life of prayer who are the greatest, in my mind. The do not experience anything more than prayer, yet thier faith is strong.

If one has faith to eat veggies, and another faith to eat anything, does that make one greater than the other? Of course not.

And to be honest, it is not completely about faith either, it is about love. As faith alone is only a gong clanging in the wind.

Love is the key

I didn't miss it. I was pointing out that John's statement was speaking of a specific group of people and that it was in the past tense.

 

[Bill]

I didn't miss it. I was pointing out that John's statement was speaking of a specific group of people and that it was in the past tense.

Ok , good .

But for all of us, we should never ever think of ourselves above others. Jesus tells us to be the servant, and to walk in humility.

 

[Butch5]

Ok , good .

But for all of us, we should never ever think of ourselves above others. Jesus tells us to be the servant, and to walk in humility.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. The Gnostics were a group that conflated Christianity and Greek philosphy.

 

[Bill]

Can i not be Christian and be saved? The title of this thred.

My answer is No.

The simple reason, to be a True Christian is exactly that, to be saved.

Now there are many who will tell you, i am a Christian. Yet, will not allow God into thier hearts. This is not what being a Christian is. You can not claim to be Christian and have no love in your heart. Nor can you claim to be "saved" and have no Love in your heart. That would be like Satan claiming to be Christian.

The Holy Spirit inspires us to faith, and faith leads us to Jesus. But you must accept Jesus into your heart.

Now, this is also true, a person, who does not understand Christianity, but who has Love in thier heart, is already a "Christian". This is a Christian of the heart, someone who is a true Christian.

A true Christian does not have the outward appearance of being Christian. The True Christian is one whose heart is pierced with God's Love.

 

[Garee]

I understand where you are coming from, but you missed the comment , " who consider themselves to have a higher power" as if they are above anyone else. And that would be false.

I have many unusual Gifts, but it does not make me greater than a person who is called to constant prayer. In fact, it is those called to a life of prayer who are the greatest, in my mind. The do not experience anything more than prayer, yet thier faith is strong.

If one has faith to eat veggies, and another faith to eat anything, does that make one greater than the other? Of course not.

And to be honest, it is not completely about faith either, it is about love. As faith alone is only a gong clanging in the wind.

Love is the key

It is all one in the same thing. .

A work of Christ's faith or his understanding as the labor of His love.,. "The let there be" the unseen law and "it was good" the testimony of faith (the words declared .) The law of faith . In that way we previously had no faith .None not little

Faith is a work it cannot be separated from His labor.

Before we are freely given eternal life the reward of His labor of love. We were considered dead in our trespass and sin without the faith of Christ.

Clearly natural man of no faith . None that could please the love of our faithful Creator.

 

[Bill]

It is all one in the same thing. .

A work of Christ's faith or his understanding as the labor of His love.,. "The let there be" the unseen law and "it was good" the testimony of faith (the words declared .) The law of faith . In that way we previously had no faith .None not little

Faith is a work it cannot be separated from His labor.

Before we are freely given eternal life the reward of His labor of love. We were considered dead in our trespass and sin without the faith of Christ.

Clearly natural man of no faith . None that could please the love of our faithful Creator.

No , that is not correct.

A person can have faith, and have no love. Faith itself is a precurser to Knowledge. As an example, it took a ton of faith for Peter to step out of the boat. He did not already know the water would support him. And he was doing fine until he started thinking, doubting. And it was then that he started to sink.

Abraham did not know the Angel would stop him from killing Isaac. It was not till after.

It takes faith to Believe in God, even for us. But once in heaven, there will be no more need for faith, you will know.

Love on the other hand continues, Forever.

It is the primary ingredient you must have to go to Paradise.

Jesus and Love are One

Nowhere in the scripture will you find God taking a person to Heaven because of faith. Faith will save a person. Our Faith brings us to our Salvation, who is Jesus. But you have to do something next, you HAVE TO RECEIVE JESUS. It is the ONLY way to Paradise.

Remember Jesus is Love , and Love from your Heart is Jesus.

Jesus states, when you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the least, you do it for me.

Love from your heart, is the Only Way

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Bill,

pray you are well

A true Christian does not have the outward appearance of being Christian. The True Christian is one whose heart is pierced with God's Love.

Now, this is also true, a person, who does not understand Christianity, but who has Love in thier heart, is already a "Christian". This is a Christian of the heart, someone who is a true Christian.

For clarity for those who might think otherwise or else have no idea -(been there myself before He opened my eyes)

Perhaps if we say that God's love (agape) is (for all) centered around the piercing of His Son?

If our hearts are not pierced (as you wrote) with the piercing of His Son, then we will remain outside in darkness, no matter how 'loving' you might be. How else might our hearts be set on fire and purged?


Bless you ....><>