Can i not be Christian and Saved?

[Br. Bear]

It is all one in the same thing. .

A work of Christ's faith or his understanding as the labor of His love.,. "The let there be" the unseen law and "it was good" the testimony of faith (the words declared .) The law of faith . In that way we previously had no faith .None not little

Faith is a work it cannot be separated from His labor.

Before we are freely given eternal life the reward of His labor of love. We were considered dead in our trespass and sin without the faith of Christ.

Clearly natural man of no faith . None that could please the love of our faithful Creator.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6

 

[Bill]

Greetings Bill,

pray you are well





For clarity for those who might think otherwise or else have no idea -(been there myself before He opened my eyes)

Perhaps if we say that God's love (agape) is (for all) centered around the piercing of His Son?

If our hearts are not pierced (as you wrote) with the piercing of His Son, then we will remain outside in darkness, no matter how 'loving' you might be. How else might our hearts be set on fire and purged?


Bless you ....><>

The Love of Jesus must pierce your heart. As the true Jew's Circumcision is of the Heart.

 

[Bill]

But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6

Do you know why the thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven? It was that he expressed love through compassion towards Jesus.

It is by way of the Holy Spirit we are drawn through faith to Jesus. But then in receiving Jesus, we receive the Love of God.

I know many say faith alone, but without receiving, without taking into your heart - Jesus. Without Love, we have nothing. It is Faith and Love that take us to the Father

 

[Garee]

Do you know why the thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven? It was that he expressed love through compassion towards Jesus.

It is by way of the Holy Spirit we are drawn through faith to Jesus. But then in receiving Jesus, we receive the Love of God.

I know many say faith alone, but without receiving, without taking into your heart - Jesus. Without Love, we have nothing. It is Faith and Love that take us to the Father

Yes faith is a work as a labor of His love.

It all together one thing that cannot be separated.

 

[Bill]

Yes faith is a work as a labor of His love.

It all together one thing that cannot be separated.

You must not have read what I wrote before. A person can have love but not have faith as we understand it. As an example you could have a person who is a Hindu, with deep love for his fellow man, that love that comes from the heart. That is the love that Paul talks about where he states that pagans who do not know the law but follow the law that's written in their heart can be saved.

And there are some Christians who have hatred in their hearts but they have all the faith in the world when it comes to Jesus. But there's a huge problem with that, and that problem is they have never accepted Jesus into their heart. Because if they have then they would love and not hate. The example goes with the Catholics if you hate the Catholics I mean out and out hate the Catholics you don't you're not Christian you're not with the Lord you're not with Jesus. If you cannot forgive the Catholics just plain and simple considering them the children of Satan, then you do not have Jesus in you. The same goes for the Catholics that cannot accept any Protestant church no matter who they are or what they've done, they do not have Christ in them either.

No it's okay to disagree I mean what child in a family agrees with another child. And we are all in the family of God so you show me one denomination that actually agrees with another denomination, because they argue like children. He's my God not yours and the other one says back he's my God not yours and they continue with we know God you don't and the other one says we know God you don't. Such foolishness. They are all God's children, and there are many who love God in all of these churches. And God loves all of them.

 

[Garee]

You must not have read what I wrote before. A person can have love but not have faith as we understand it. As an example you could have a person who is a Hindu, with deep love for his fellow man, that love that comes from the heart. That is the love that Paul talks about where he states that pagans who do not know the law but follow the law that's written in their heart can be saved.

And there are some Christians who have hatred in their hearts but they have all the faith in the world when it comes to Jesus. But there's a huge problem with that, and that problem is they have never accepted Jesus into their heart. Because if they have then they would love and not hate. The example goes with the Catholics if you hate the Catholics I mean out and out hate the Catholics you don't you're not Christian you're not with the Lord you're not with Jesus. If you cannot forgive the Catholics just plain and simple considering them the children of Satan, then you do not have Jesus in you. The same goes for the Catholics that cannot accept any Protestant church no matter who they are or what they've done, they do not have Christ in them either.

No it's okay to disagree I mean what child in a family agrees with another child. And we are all in the family of God so you show me one denomination that actually agrees with another denomination, because they argue like children. He's my God not yours and the other one says back he's my God not yours and they continue with we know God you don't and the other one says we know God you don't. Such foolishness. They are all God's children, and there are many who love God in all of these churches. And God loves all of them.

I have read what you offered . Again faith is the power of God coming from Christ.It altogether is a labor of love. . .called a "work of faith" .

His faith working in us to both reveals his will as his truth and empower us to perform it to his good pleasure ,


It's not our faith that we exercise towards him that profits . . we are said to have no faith as evil generation before our conversion. . .not little . . .none. He is the storeroom our treasure . That faith that produced works is not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The creative law of faith , two laws working as one word , they must be mixed or there is no gospel according to hebrew 4.

# 1 "let there be" . #2 and it was good. The testimony of the one word called according to "this word", below, No light and it was good working in them

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Garee]

Do you know why the thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven? It was that he expressed love through compassion towards Jesus.

It is by way of the Holy Spirit we are drawn through faith to Jesus. But then in receiving Jesus, we receive the Love of God.

I know many say faith alone, but without receiving, without taking into your heart - Jesus. Without Love, we have nothing. It is Faith and Love that take us to the Father

Yes its the labor of Christ love as a work of his faith that can take us into his holy presence..

Without him we can do nothing to give him the good pleasure of a faithful Creator.

 

[Bill]

Yes its the labor of Christ love as a work of his faith that can take us into his holy presence..

Without him we can do nothing to give him the good pleasure of a faithful Creator.

You say you read what i offer , but i do not offer anything that the scripture does not already say.

Faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind.

 

[Garee]

You say you read what i offer , but i do not offer anything that the scripture does not already say.

Faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind.

Yes Christ can faith cannot be alone it is a work .

 

[Br. Bear]

@Bill

I really don't think @Garee is at odds with you but was agreeing and adding some extra pleasant fruit to it.

Post in Peace.

it's an act of love even though...

like when Abraham, even though dead in body, with his wife, believed and they brought forth a son at old age.
He did other acts of faithful love.


Bless you ....><>

ps.. if you invited a bunch of children together and asked them all to tell about faith and love, how many would be wrong?

I hear the Apostles words ringing... Little Children...

 

[Bill]

@Bill

I really don't think @Garee is at odds with you but was agreeing and adding some extra pleasant fruit to it.

Post in Peace.

it's an act of love even though...

like when Abraham, even though dead in body, with his wife, believed and they brought forth a son at old age.
He did other acts of faithful love.


Bless you ....><>

ps.. if you invited a bunch of children together and asked them all to tell about faith and love, how many would be wrong?

I hear the Apostles words ringing... Little Children...

True .

I was just thinking that as well

 

[Garee]

@Bill

I really don't think @Garee is at odds with you but was agreeing and adding some extra pleasant fruit to it.

Post in Peace.

it's an act of love even though...

like when Abraham, even though dead in body, with his wife, believed and they brought forth a son at old age.
He did other acts of faithful love.


Bless you ....><>

ps.. if you invited a bunch of children together and asked them all to tell about faith and love, how many would be wrong?

I hear the Apostles words ringing... Little Children...

Thanks

How many wrong or misapplied? Little children used 16 times in the N.T. Children before the fall.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water (gospel) only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

I would agree. Little children are given little faith of Christ the one source of born again Christian faith .Referred to as the golden measure . Gold throughout represents the unseen glorious things of God.

The good measure of faith .Previously mankind having no faith, zero that could please. . . . .Different than the measure of man literal number or under the sun (temporal) .

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Little faith used 5 times in the N.T.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I would not attribute it as it is written to the apostles rather than God who moved them to both will and do his good pleasure. .

Not a big thing . .But more like hear the words of the Father calling us little ones by which we can cry out Abba. It seems you were giving that over to the apostles .

Many do misrepresent the meaning of the word "sent ones" and make apostle into "venerable ones". . destroying the picture of the gospel between Abel sent as a apostle with the word and the witness of the father of lies the first recorded murder and first martyr whose blood like the blood of all born again saints cries out in the hope of the new incorruptible bodies on the last day under the Sun

In that way some like in Catholicism which is a copy of the Pharisees with Saducesses a law of the fathers oral traditions. I heard it through the fathers grapevine. . that set up of government of dying venerable mankind as a way puffing up the venerable ones. above the non-venerable. Worshiping the corrupted creation above the Faithful Creator who is not a man as us.

1 Corinthians 4: 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure(parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received

1 Corinthians 3: 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Those sent by God even today are given a desire of God They can plant the incorruptible born again seed and another water it with the doctrines of God .But God must cause the golden growth .

God bless. . sorry for the rambling.

 

[Rhema]

Thank you .

Just a note. Todays text and those written 30 years ago will read differently. Something i noted

Hi Bill,

Perhaps you could start a thread and give some examples. ( I find the TPT ... the "Passion Translation" to be pretty problematic.)

Thanks,
Rhema

( If you do, let me know.)

 

[Rhema]

Actually, the Christ is a term used of the kings of Israel. King Saul was the Lord's Christ.

I would note that "Christ" is not an English word, but a Greek word left untranslated. Instead, it is transliterated, merely copied into English letters..

χριστος

χ - Ch​

ρ - r​

ι - i​

σ - s​

τ - t​

with the ος being left off as an extraneous inflection.

It may have been better were the term to be actually translated as "Anointed". But then we get into a nomina sacra discussion.

Saying Jesus is the Christ is an acknowledgement that Jesus is the King.

Given a Royal lineage, it most certainly was the intent that Jesus be King, with his cousin John as high priest. Didn't quite work out that way though ...

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

There were and there still are in the Church today people who consider themselves to have a "higher knowledge" than anyone else which in turn comes out as "false revelations" False teachers who look like the real thing but have a "fake" faith". These people come and go from every kind of true Church. They were never a part of the true Church because if there were they would have never left. Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, and emotional approach to truth without using the scriptures

With all due respect, @Curtis, there were and there still are in the Church today people who have taken the time to become well educated and actually do have a "better knowledge" than anyone else. Indeed, without such study, there would have been NO Reformation, and indeed the Roman Catholic Church still believes that the teachings of Martin Luther ARE "false revelations."

So do the Evangelicals "look like the real thing but have a fake faith"? (The Catholics believe so.) Do the Quakers? The Presbyterians? (The Evangelicals believe so.) The Baptists? The Orthodox? The Oriental Orthodox were around a lot longer than you, so to them, you are those "people (who) come and go from every kind of true Church."

But what is the true Church? Yours? Mine?

There is sufficient reason to believe that the "those who left" as described in 1st John are the Gentile converts made by Paul who "went out from" the body of Jewish believers. Check the dates. Scholars tend to give A.D. 85-95 as the time frame for when 1st John was written, but Valentinius, a major leader of the Gnostics wasn't even born until around 100 AD. And he was considered for the office of Bishop of Rome, so he wouldn't have been one to have "gone out." This idea that 1st John refers to the Gnostics is a speculative trope at best.

Finally, I would direct your attention to the book...

The Gnostic Paul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Certainly Paul can be said to teach "a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, and emotional approach to truth without using the scriptures," since he wrote most of them.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

A person can have love but not have faith as we understand it.

When one says "faith" today, it most often refers to the concept of Kierkegaardian Faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago.

Truly, truth is distorted when definitions are changed.

I have seen the word "faith" used in five distinctly different ways. And I have been involved in several discussions where both sides are extremely happy in agreement about "faith," until I start to explain to both what the other actually means... then enlightenment settles in that neither mean what the other believes.

As an example:

Textus Receptus - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through THE faith.​

Alexandrian - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια (-) πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through faith.​

Isn't it obvious that there is quite a difference here?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Bill]

When one says "faith" today, it most often refers to the concept of Kierkegaardian Faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago.

Truly, truth is distorted when definitions are changed.

I have seen the word "faith" used in five distinctly different ways. And I have been involved in several discussions where both sides are extremely happy in agreement about "faith," until I start to explain to both what the other actually means... then enlightenment settles in that neither mean what the other believes.

As an example:

Textus Receptus - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through THE faith.​

Alexandrian - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια (-) πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through faith.​

Isn't it obvious that there is quite a difference here?

Thanks,
Rhema

There is a series of books out titled the Sunday Sermons of the Founding Fathers. It is an old series. Do not know if they have been reprinted in recent years. However, these are a collection of sermons that were written down during the first 100 years of the church.

To validate them may be difficult this day and age. But they are an interesting read.

If you ever have a chance, i highly recommend them.

 

[Bill]

When one says "faith" today, it most often refers to the concept of Kierkegaardian Faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago.

Truly, truth is distorted when definitions are changed.

I have seen the word "faith" used in five distinctly different ways. And I have been involved in several discussions where both sides are extremely happy in agreement about "faith," until I start to explain to both what the other actually means... then enlightenment settles in that neither mean what the other believes.

As an example:

Textus Receptus - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through THE faith.​

Alexandrian - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια (-) πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through faith.​

Isn't it obvious that there is quite a difference here?

Thanks,
Rhema

You are right to say, there are different kinds of faith. From the type that led the Centurion to Jesus or the type of faith the woman had with the hemorrhages were all she wanted to do was touch Jesus.

However Jesus himself didn't seem to mind the different types of faith so long as they had it.

 

[Butch5]

When one says "faith" today, it most often refers to the concept of Kierkegaardian Faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago.

Truly, truth is distorted when definitions are changed.

I have seen the word "faith" used in five distinctly different ways. And I have been involved in several discussions where both sides are extremely happy in agreement about "faith," until I start to explain to both what the other actually means... then enlightenment settles in that neither mean what the other believes.

As an example:

Textus Receptus - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through THE faith.​

Alexandrian - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια (-) πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through faith.​

Isn't it obvious that there is quite a difference here?

Thanks,
Rhema

I was just looking at that yesterday.

 

[Bill]

When one says "faith" today, it most often refers to the concept of Kierkegaardian Faith, a concept that did not exist 2,000 years ago.

Truly, truth is distorted when definitions are changed.

I have seen the word "faith" used in five distinctly different ways. And I have been involved in several discussions where both sides are extremely happy in agreement about "faith," until I start to explain to both what the other actually means... then enlightenment settles in that neither mean what the other believes.

As an example:

Textus Receptus - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through THE faith.​

Alexandrian - τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια (-) πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

By Grace are ye saved through faith.​

Isn't it obvious that there is quite a difference here?

Thanks,
Rhema

Nice to see you back btw. You give good challenges to everyone here. With serious, yet noncombative arguements we all grow in wisdom.