Here's where you are making a mistake, Jari: You are trying to judge the truth of my post by whether or not you believe it to be true. People who believe in OSAS seem to think that for those of us who don't, to be right, we have to prove to you that you are wrong. And, I believe what I believe despite your belief in it, and don't have to get you or RJ or anyone else to admit that you are wrong to feel better about what I believe. As I have said before, my posts are not really against you, but for non-OSAS. The debate is yours.
What you have can't be lost, I've seen that for myself many times over. But, the salvation that is referred to in the Bible can be lost. Everything that you believe, is based entirely on your interpretation of the scriptures. So, is your faith in God or in your own intelligence?
Nothing that you have said changes my view or opinion either.
You and I have something entirely different. If you and I were partakers in the same salvation, you would know that it could be lost. The logical conclusion is that you and I do not have the same thing. One of us is not as close to God as we believe we are.
Can someone ( anyone ) explain something to me: If the gift of God is a "free gift" in the sense that it is so often used, why are we then referred to in scripture as "servants" and "bought" after we become Christians?
I Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
II Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
I Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Wouldn't that imply that there are "strings" attached?
I John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: ( we can say what we will, but if our actions—our walk—show otherwise, we are liars and are not walking with God even though we say that we are. Coincidentally, if someone says that they are saved but the sin—the darkness—in their lives is clear to us, we should be able to decide that they are not saved. )
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. ( when we ( John seems to include himself here, right? ) choose to stop walking in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ does not continue to cleanse us from our sin while we walk in the darkness. You cannot continue to sin and be—or stay—saved. If you disagree, then you are promoting licentiousness. )
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. ( If you allow yourself to sin willfully, you are in direct disobedience to this verse; if you obey this verse, it's works )
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. ( "yield yourselves" sounds like works to me. Are we saved by works? Justified by works? No, but when we are truly in the grace of God, our works will become those of righteousness and not sin; but it is through Christ because a person cannot walk righteously on their own. )
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ( When you give in to sin, you put yourself back under the law; fallen from grace )
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. ( When you sin, you are a servant to sin, and no longer a servant of righteousness. How can one continue to sin, and yet be free of it? Do you also tell people in wheelchairs that Jesus has healed them even though they still remain in the chair? You are either healed, or you are not. You are either free, or you are not. )
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ( because of Adam, every one of us experienced a life of sin; we have all truly lived in sin. In Christ, we are now expected to live righteous. When we were sinners, we could not do righteous works. Now, we are to be righteous, and not do sinful works. )
Romans 6:20 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ( seems clear enough to me. When we were sinners, our works were sinful. Now that we are righteous, our works should also be righteous. )
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ( If you live in sin, you will die. If you, through Christ, convert to righteousness, you will live. )
Jesus told us how to identify false prophets and false apostles. Their fruits. Would you think that false prophets and false apostles are "saved"? Many of us drive past many churches on our way to church, why do we not just attend the one closest to our homes? Because we have judged them, in some fashion, as not having the Biblical truth. Judging their salvation. How could they possibly be saved if they don't believe the truth, right? If Romans 10:6-7 are to be understood the way that you are trying to use them, then Jude was in direct disobedience to this verse:
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
And what about Peter judging Simon's relationship with God:
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. How could Peter have possibly known whether Simon's heart was right in the sight of God? Peter judged by Simon's works.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Acts 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
No, I don't see where trying to decide whether someone is in a good relationship with God or not is forbidden, but I do see where sinning while under grace is:
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
And yet you debate it by saying that it would be works.
Choosing to believe something is actually works. It's an action that one must perform, and continue to perform every day of their lives.
James 2:15-26 answers it even more clearly.
Martin Luther tells us that the ancients rejected the book of James because, to them, it was in direct contrast with Paul's teachings about faith alone, while James seems to clearly teach that faith alone is insufficient. Do you agree with them, james g, would you like to see the book of James removed from the Canon?
By the way, Jari, I love how your response to people's posts is so often just telling them that they have taken scripture out of context. We can accuse you of the same thing.
