Greetings,
First, I do not want to take from the above questions
@DHC &
@RJ.
Perhaps the following might help us to see a little more clearly.
What often happens is that we seek law or we prefer not to be tarred with that brush so we either say that scripture says or else we call it doctrine, in order to prove all manner of answers and solutions and reasoning to things like, "is it lawful for a man to marry his widows sister?" but worse still we do this with things of Scripture.
I originally wrote this to a brother who escaped, was set free from (was delivered from?) The Tulip , so I ask that if some of it seems a bit odd, it is because I have been a bit lazy and copy pasted it here.
Basically we keep asking the wrong question and spend centuries debating /fighting /defending /dividing /entrapping /entangling /imprisoning our minds and miss the message of the Gospel for ourselves and countless others, slaves to ignorance and servants of flesh.
As you will see, this refers to both those for and against Calvinism - as well as so many other man made messages.
I will get to it in a little while, but before I do I would like to say a little that you can decide upon :
Old JC decided to put God in a box and rewrite the Scriptures. He came up with things that the old priests did not like because it messed with their livelihood and position with the kings queens and emperors. To get disciples he used fear and condemnation but he also had such a way with words that many simply followed and ministered to his needs and in time and in centuries following, faithfully translated and copied his teachings.
Now, I know Whom I choose to follow, do you?
Which JC will it be for thee?
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For the LORD giveth wisdom:
out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 2:6
Brother, you asked about my take on Jesus foreknowing from John.
I had been there before in study and prayer and re-entering with much prayer, resigned to know the Lord and His take on it.
After much praying the above Scripture was 'given' and as always with the Lord, He could answer in His way which is not my way.
I seek after stimulation of my undestanding and all too often base that on what and how much my mind can comprehend and figure things out, which in itself does not have to be bad, for we must apply ourselves to know wisdom and we must seek to find, but all too often, as stated, I/we can rely far too much upon out mortal or fleshy interpretations and with this thrives the applying of the traditions of man and the teachings of man which always misses the mark and denies the LORD as its result.
Brother, we must... must, ask and seek the Lord that He would show us outside of what we think or think we know as so often our chirstianese and churchianity take a deep root in our mind and comprehension and interpretation of the written Word and therefore defiles also the truth about the Living Word Who is the Truth, manifested for the express purpose of the Lord to perform all that He is sent to do of His will, not returning void but accomplishing that which is perfected already from and in the One Who sent and Speaks that Word.
With that said, prayfully that you may understand what I am writing to you, I saw with joy the answer that had already been with me but my words could not quite express and it all came together as it should as all good does.
Most of our thinking gets marred by what is the 'norm', the way everyone accepts and interprets Scripture but nothing new being the case under the sun, it usually remains the blind leading the blind and from this we then boast great doctrine and of course bear fruit of error and to put it bluntly, darkness rather than light or, more bluntly, Darkness rather than Light.
But, let us take hold of Him Who is Light and rejoice for in Him is no void nor shadow of turning and He does give good gifts unto men.
Calvinism is the fruit of bad fruit. It in itself is also seen as bad fruit and a tree cannot produce differently from that from whence it comes.
Let us take of the wild and graft it in and allow the Life to be our new and living life, overflowing and bearing only the nature of the One to Who we are grafted... of course I say this in full understanding that it is not us but our Father Who is the husbandman and does the grafting into His Son.
Jesus knew from the beginning or had foreknowledge of who would and who would not.
Look again at the Scripture,
For the LORD giveth wisdom:
out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
What did Jesus know? How did He know it?
Jesus said more than once that He did and spoke that which was given Him to do, that the works He did were not His own but the Father's and we need to keep that in mind here (and elswhere).
Looking at the Scripture in question, from John 6:64b
"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."
we must not overlook the whole story before especially here in John 6, where we see what has already been stated about the Lord and His Word and words.
How did He know?
When did He know it?
Brother, as a mechanically minded farmer, I know that while you may have everything needed to take on everything that comes your way, the working of the precise tools and situation are never in place before the time of being needed but available to you if and when needed, to use often differently for as many different tasks at hand as they arise.You have what it takes but what is the 'it' bit?
Well, in farming and mechanics it differs so much. You certainly do not have everything on and in hand for every season and every breakdown, repair and task but they are all available for when the time arises.... therefore we have what it takes to do the job.
Wisdom is from Where and Who?
My Jesus emptied Himself of the postion in God to become a man, a servant to man and the full representative of man as the Son of man... emptied .. emptyhanded... and we have an ensample and example in Him....
Trust in the Lord is such a rich direction from Scripture and listen to the Lord, follow the Lord, do whatsoever I have commanded... obey, believe, doers not hearers only.. and the list goes on.
Was my Jesus removed from all those rich directions?
Was Our Jesus a cut above us all and therefore immune to all we suffer and toil and are tempted with or a feeble example to us to obey all that He was instructed? NO... absolutely NOT, my Brother.
We all too often forget this and place Him in our minds as One Who was not touched with the feelings of our infirmities, Who really had no need to bother or fuss... or even pray... but this is error.
He did pray, more than all of us ever appear to do.. but why would God pray to Himself? Doesn't add up, Brother.
Wisdom was given to Him, and knowledge and understanding proceed(ed) from His mouth.
"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him."
Read some of the first Proverbs and come back to this.
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Jesus had fed many and He knew who was in it for the food and who was there for Him and the Bread from Heaven, for it was given Him... what was? Wisdom was given Him...
Wisdom pertains to the LORD, not man and Wisdom is from Him as much as His Will and may I say, His Spirit, that is, Wisdom is Holy, not mortal, eternal, not corruptible and perishing. Wisdom is perefect and therfore can only be in direct relation and relationship with and to the LORD.
We tend to limit and think Wisdom as a thing employed by man in all his needy state and limit the power of God in doing so, remaining in Darkness, not knowing and being tossed by every wave and wind.
Wisdom is from the Beginning and our Jesus recieved Wisdom, walking as we do upon this earth...
there is much more and my feeble effort here is indeed feeble, but we see Him Who was made Widsom for us and for the express purpose for which He was sent and came.
Does our Scripture say that He knew ages before as in eras or from eternal, who would betray Him or believe not?
No. But we have 'learnt' to interpret the logic of it like that and so proceed to become confused by it all and find such error as Calvinism springing forth and perverting the Gospel given unto man for the Salvatin of souls.
We need to un-learn so much, Brother.
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.... seems to fit a bit here. (I don't mean yours, but you, me and anyone to whom it may apply as a need to so do).
When I meet someone or see a group of people from my mortal stance, I find it reasonably easy to perceive a bit about them as most likely you would too and in fact near everyone would and could and does.
When it comes down to or better put when it rises up to the things of the LORD, we must not rely on our understanding or perception but can only discern and know from and by and WITH Him from Whom such Wisdom comes.
In other words, Jesus was given to know, to be able to know, who was who and if you walked a moment in His shoes at that time, where so many came after Him for different reasons, from envy, trouble, hunger and genuine faith, it was His to know who was who... therefore, "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.".
Why do we re-write it all in a differnt language and meaning which leads to confusion?
Every Scripture balances not with us and our interpretaion but with itself and Him of Whom it speaks.
Can I ask you to read 1Corinthians 1 ?
The foreknowing you ask about is not as Calvinists preach and is also not as most others try to hold on to.
I pray this helps you.
In Jesus name in Whom we have our hope and redemption,
Bless you ....><>
