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The Trinity - True or False

Do you Believe the Trinity


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As to your assertion that Jesus was not created: This assertion is inaccurate

As God, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus was not/could not be created. But, as man, he was created - not in the sense of being conceived through an act of carnal sexual intercourse, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.
SLE

Hi SpiritLedEd,
Are we created because we are born of a woman? Does creation mean only physical birth. Then the angels would not be considered created according to your point.

Elijah was taken up to heaven and they born again through another woman.

2 Kings 2:11 - As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Mark 9:13 - But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

Does that mean he was recreated?

And what does this mean then?

John 8:58 - "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

sheep
 
I believe the trinity. I’ve not studied it since before the first thread, page reading that. Did not change my opinion, why?
I believe that Jesus was a physical form he walked upon the earth. I believe the Holy Spirit lives in us as a spiritual form, I believe that God is a spiritual presence in Heaven whom we shall see once we die and go to heaven; I believe that there are three which is the trinity.

Love Abraxix
 
Re: The Trinity - true or false?

Hi SpiritLedEd,
Are we created because we are born of a woman? Does creation mean only physical birth. Then the angels would not be considered created according to your point.

Elijah was taken up to heaven and they born again through another woman.

2 Kings 2:11 - As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Mark 9:13 - But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

Does that mean he was recreated?

And what does this mean then?

John 8:58 - "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

sheep

We are created because we have a beginning. Anything that has a beginning has been created. Jesus, AS MAN, has a beginning, therefore AS MAN he was created but, AS GOD, he is not created, therefore, he indeed existed before Abraham.

As to Elijah (as spoken in Mark 9:12-13): The reference in those verses is to John the Baptist. Elijah was a type of John the Baptist in that they both suffered at the hands of weak kings and their wicked wives; Elijah at the hands of Ahab and Jezebel, John at the hands of Herod and Herodias. Easton's Bible Dictionary says that the word "Type" refers to a model or example of something or someone.


SLE
 
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The purpose of Three...

Nugget...from reading your post, it sounds as though the word has taken an intellectual view to your mind? There is a purpose for all three persons of the trinity.

God, looking at this world knew that it could no longer go own it's own for animal sacrifices by a priest once a year. The sacrifice of these animals were no longer enough for the sins of mankind. The sins of the people became too great to wait once a year. He needed a mediator in the form of a man, so He wound know what it would be like to suffer in the flesh. And that He did!

Haven't you ever wondered why Jesus said Father why have You forsaken Me, when He was on the cross? It was at that moment before He died He had taken all the sins of mankind upon Himself. And God the father is too Holy to look upon sin.

Jesus didn't want to do what He knew He was going to have to do, but He excepted the will of the Father to do His will. And that's what we have to do on a daily basis, line our will up with His, to do His will! When Jesus was going to go to the Father, to leave this earth He said that He would leave the Holy Spirit, (the Helper, the Paraclete, One stands along side).

It is a choice of what we want to believe by His word, we can tear it apart and analyze it, or ask the Holy Spirit for the interpretation. But most of all it's by faith that we receive it. Hebrews 11:6 says with out faith it is impossible to please God. Our own hearts are deceitful and can lead us astray Jer.17:9,10. Ask the Holy Spirit He will show you.

Sometimes I like to explain it as water...look at the forms it can be used by, but it's still water.
God Bless
 
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Isa 48:16-17

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. KJV


Read this in context. It is God speaking and yet He speaks of the Lord God and His Spirit so who is talking? Jesus referring tothe other two parts of the Godhead.


John 14:16-17
6 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. KJV

Jesus speaks of the Father and to another (in the Greek of the same kind) comforter referring to the Spirit.

Who was at the baptism of Christ? The Father speaking from heaven, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and of course, Christ.

There is a trinity.
 
God's answer to the Trinity

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
Good reference but most, if not all, of the modern versions will either leave that out or say in the foornotes that it does does not belong. Their assumption is that it is a marginal commentary note that somehow got into the text as it is not in the bogus texts used by the MVs but is in the texts used by the KJV tarnslators as well as in versions, letters, lectionaries and commentaries much older then Westcott-Hort mess.
 
Well, 1 John 5:7 says: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one".
God the Father sent His Son who knew no sin, to live a perfect sinless life and shed His precious blood for my sins. When I received Christ as Saviour the Holy Spirit came in to my heart and dwells within. When I was baptized, I was baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. I don't understand it all,but I believe it. I'm not God, so I don't believe I need to understand it all.
 
I believe the Bible clearly explains the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, there is no salvation. God, the father made the law and God, the son forgave our sins against the law. God, the Holy Spirit reveals these things to us.

There is one God, but in three persons. This is probably the most difficult thing to understand, but as Christians we must believe it in order to have salvation because only God can forgive our sins.

Jesus is God:love:

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." KJV


God Bless
 
Hello,

I am writing this to answer some questions that Ratanang asked about the Trinity. Let me preface my statements by saying that I do believe that Jesus is God.

Basically, the Trinity is a false doctrine because 1) the fundamental definition of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, 2) one has to redefine or make figurative several words (such as "person", "god", and "one"), and 3) there already exists an explanation of the Godhead within the Bible.

The fundamental definition of "Trinity" is "one God in three persons". Neither this phrase, nor any equivalent, is found in the Bible. There are certainly verses that refer to God in different ways, such as:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There are many other verses like this, however, none of them say that these are different people. I fully believe in 1 John 5:7 as it is. Trinitarians re-interpret the wording in their mind so that the last phrase says "and these three people are one God." This is adding to the word.

Again, I fully believe Matthew 28:19, we should go and baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And as we can see in Acts 2:38, that Name is Jesus Christ:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Look at this example:

John 14:15-18 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Here Jesus first says that the Father will give us another Comforter, but then He identifies Himself as that Comforter.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, and that God is one. Nowhere does it say "one God in three persons".

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

In Jesus' Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf
 
1John 5:7 error

The following scripture was quoted by Gloria, Pjnewman, Itpage, Cody,and Christserf

(1 Jn. 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

That scripture was forged and inserted by the Roman Catholic many years ago in their very first complete bible the Douay-Rheims.

That particular verse was also the foundation for the Catholic Trinity teaching, and it latter ended up in the KJV after the Roman Church bought the publishung rights to it.

Most all Christian translators will not use that verse in their Bibles, because they know that scripture is not found in any of the older manuscripts that are used for making the Holy Bible.

The above 1John 5:7 quoted is not found in the following Christian Bibles:

American Standard Version
New American Standard
New Living Translation
Contemporary English Version
Easy-to-Read Version
Revised Standard Version
New Revised Standard
GOD'S WORD Translation
World English Bible
The Bible in Basic English
The Darby Translation
Hebrew Names Version
The Latin Vulgate
International Standard Version
Weymouth's New Testament
Institute for Scripture Research (ISR Bible)
Paleo Times Bible
The Hebraic Roots Version HRV Scriptures

I believe that the spirit of Yahweh dwells in Yahshua (John 14:10), and is the same spirit that he was conceived with, but I believe that Yahweh is greater than Yahshua.

Otherwise I do not believe they are coequal. The spirit of Yahweh dwells in all of His children (1Cor 3:16)

The body has many members, but is one, and the spirit of Yahweh is the power, life, Father of us all. (1Cor 12: 4-12)

The Trinity is misunderstood, and it often attempts to make Yahshua coequal with Yahweh, or as Yahweh himself.

Yahweh is a spirit (John 4:24), and He is Holy. The Holy spirit is not a third person, nor has a third name.

Yahshua is at the right side of the Father, and is his son. Lots of scripture proof that Yahshua is not Yahweh.

There are way more than three in the one body, and all by the same spirit.

Have a Blessed Sabbath

His Child
 
It always baffles me when Christians spend so much time debating the obvious.

If the Doctrine of The Trinity is not true then what will you do with 1st John 5:7? Throw it out of the Bible?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." Of course, you can always choose to believe the corrupted versions that have taken this verse out in an attempt to attack the deity of Christ!

And who was God talking to in Genesis when He said "Let US make man in OUR image?" God obviously has a plural nature, that's why He made man a plurality like Himself.

Man is spirit, soul and body - God is Father, Word and Holy Spirit. Like Father, like son! If we are made in HIS image and we are tri-partite in nature then isn't it reasonable to believe that He is tri-partite in nature also? Three in One and One in Three?

To help explain the Trinity to those who are truly seeking enlightenment I've included an excerpt from the first book I wrote called "Understanding The 3 Levels of Salvation: Spirit, Soul & Body." Here it is:


What is ‘The Trinity’?

The Hebrew word ‘Elohiym’ is the most commonly translated word for
God in the Old Testament and is the plural form of the word “Eloah”.

Obviously being plural means that it’s referring to more than one! Yet,
it’s still referring to only ONE GOD, not two or three Gods. ONLY ONE
GOD!

This being so and we know that the scriptures declare that there
is only one God. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD," Deut.
6:4 Then it’s reasonable to assume that if He’s referred to in the plural
but He’s only ONE BEING, then His fundamental structure must be
inherently plural! He is one corporate Entity comprising different
persons!

Sounds reasonable but do the Holy Scriptures (God’s revelation
of Himself) support this? Yes they do! Can we reference this “composite
structure” from the bible? Yes we can!!! Check out the following
scriptures:

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the
Word was God” John 1:1. “There are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, The Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one” 1st
John 5:7!

Do you need more? Phil. 2:11 declares that the Father is God; in Heb. 1:8 the Son is called God and Acts 5:3, 4 refer to the Holy Ghost as God, yet the scriptures boldly declare that there is only one God (Mk 12:29, 32)

God is one Corporate Entity comprised of and eternally existing as three distinct persons!!! The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit! The bible refers to this as the Godhead! (Acts 17:29) We say the Holy Trinity. See also, Isa. 48:16.

Even though the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture the Doctrine of the Trinity is found from Genesis to Revelation!

In my 20 years of being a Christian and 16 years of teaching the Bible I've found that sooner or later truth becomes obvious to those who are REALLY seeking it!
 
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if you look at the old testament and check some of the names given to God you will see the same names are given to Jesus in the new, such as the Sheperd and there are others also if you look through the new testament there are three verses one says Jesus was raised from the dead by God, the other says Jesus raised himself from the dead and the final one says the Spirit raised him from the dead showing they are equal and one.
 
This is nuts... i just spent 2 hrs looking for 1 entry in the Old Testiment. I am sure it is in Isaiah or Jereimiah and it places the notion of the Trinity in Old Testament which uses(is) the Tenach (The hebrew bible) the 2 have the books in different order but otherwise exactly the same. so this is not an exact quote but very very close
" there are 3 that bear witness in Heaven the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and all three are 1". but the teaching of the Trinity is a very old teaching.
 
Trinity Question

Here is just a couple of more things to consider.

First, the word "Logos" in Greek is the closest Greek word to the Hebrew pre-Christian tradition of the "Memra" (Word) which culminated in the Targums, a Hebrew Aramaic paraphrasing of the Tanach (Old Testament). Look up "The Memra" on the Web.

The Memra is a Hebrew way of understanding the appearances of YHVH in the forms of The Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3) and as the Shekinah Glory (the YHVH K'vod or Glory of God) in the Tabernacle, and occasionally as a man. These appearances are sent from YHVH yet are YHVH and He is found all throughout the Old Testament (Micah 5:2). It is This particular "Angel of the Lord" (Angel of the Face, Angl of the Presence) who speaks to Moses from the burning bush, who later reveals He is the "I AM", the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. He appears as a Man to Hagar, Jacob, and Manoah's wife who all later realize they have seen God "face to face" and yet lived.

This "face to face" YHVH is the Father's perfect reflection of Himself into tenporal reality. The Word or Memra (called the Logos in the Greek) is the YHVH who appears as a man (with two angels in the forms of men) to Abraham in the fields of Mamre who come in and break bread with Him. The Hebrew literally says that YHVH (the man in the tent with Abraham) sent forth the two men (angels) to rain fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomrrah from YHVH who is in Heaven. Or look at Isaiah 48 where YHVH is speaking and says He spread out the heavens and knows the end from the beginning etc., and then in verse 16 says He was sent by YHVH of Hosts with His Spirit. The examples are manifold.

So what John was doing was not borrowing a Greek concept but sending a direct message to the unbelieving Rabbi's of the diaspora that this Jesus was the Word, the Hypostasis of YHVH, i.e., the Glory of God tabernacling in the flesh (the Greek word for dwelt is Skeenoo which means "to pitch tent"). To the Hebrew hearer in context of the times John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Memra, and the Memra was 'face to face' YHVH and was YHVH. I hope this has helped. Peace be with you.

Paul S.
 
"For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." Thank you Kaddeesh yes it is in 1 John but it is also in the Old Testiment, in exactly the same words. This is what i was looking for as further verification of my thread on "The Bible 1or2 Testiments".

thank you pshun. I love posts like this ... i love learning so this is sweet.
 
Trinity

This is for you, Mishpocah…though I am only a wild branch grafted in, when I became a Christian, the Lord led to and concerned me with Messiah from the ancient Jewish perspective (in the context of His time and His people’s understanding) as opposed to through the gentile understanding which usually goes from the reformers forward. I wish we could talk face to face or e-mail back and forth because I have been given so much I would love to share with you (and everyone but I am not sure they are that interested in their roots, but consider this related to the tri-Une nature of our one and only Lord.

You see, not so contrary to common knowledge, the ancient Jewish Rabbi’s (often uncomfortably) actually wrestled with this idea. For instance, in the Midrash Rabbah Genesis, regarding this very point, we hear Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman, speaking on the alleged authority of Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, the writer of the Targum Jonathan. In it he tells the following story:

“At the time when Moses wrote...Moses said, 'Master of the Universe, why do you give an excuse here to the sectarians'? God answered him and said, 'You write, and whoever wants to err, let him err'!“

In Rabbinical circles there are certain Quabalistic works respected as “Talmud Torah“, that is for them the Oral Law, one of which is called “The Zohar“. These teachings are attributed to the traditions and teachings of a renowned 1rst century Rabbi named Simeon who appears to dialogue in the Talmud, but allegedly these ancient Jewish traditions were not placed into written form until the 13th century, by a Spanish Jewish Scholar, named Moses De’Leon. Many see them as merely unreliable mystical traditions of historic interest only, but it reflects the illumination of certain circles within the Rabbinic debate. Zoharic references are found throughout the Talmud proper, and to this day “The Zohar“ is held in high esteem among Orthodox and Hasidic Rabbis.

Though the Zohar is more or less rejected by Christians, including myself, as far as being God-inspired writings, but as Rabbinical commentary it is worthy of historical study, because Zohar is considered by them to be Talmud Torah, or part of the Oral Tradition. We Christians as followers of Rabbi Y’shua, who is ha’Moschiach, are advised to not adhere to anything outside the word of God for our authority, but it is of historic interest regarding this tradition that we speak of it here. In volumes II.43 and III.288 the Zohar makes comment regarding the mystery of the word YHVH. It says,

“The Ancient Holy One is revealed in three heads, which are united into one, and that Head is three exalted! The Ancient One is described as being three...how three can be one, can only be known by revelation of the Spirit.“

Imagine those early Apostles of Messiah Y’shua, being brought up under a strict Pharisaic type of Judaism, and then suddenly having their minds opened to the God of Abraham revealing Himself in three distinct persona? The realization that Messiah is the Memra/Logos of God spoken of by the Targumim, and that He is the Son of the Most High referred to over and over, in diverse ways throughout the Old Testament, and the Inter-Testamental literature of Judaism, this must have had a very powerful import on those that came to believe!

In many of our English Translations of Proverbs 22:20, King Solomon has YHVH saying, “Have I not written you excellent things in counsels and knowledge?“ Well the word that is interpreted “excellent“ here, is also the word for “threefold“. Having inspired many, one Rabbi, at the time his name escapes me, who felt it equally important to ask himself, “has Ha’Shem revealed Himself in threefold things, in counsels and knowledge“? And his conclusion was astounding. When reviewing the Torah and the Prophets from this perspective he came to the conclusion that indeed He had. What I then read was about three pages of the many ways that God has revealed His threefold or triune plan in the many things that He had Created. Here are some of them to ponder:

a) Man = body, soul, and spirit

b) Soul = will, intellect, and emotion

c) Family = husband, wife, and offspring

d) Government = Rulers, Prophets, and Priests

e) the Patriarchs = Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

f) the Tabernacle = Outer Court, the Holy place, the Holy of Holies

g) the Tanach = Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets

h) the Mishnah = Talmud, Halakot, Haggadot

i) the Name of God = Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh

j) the Name, the YHVH = three letters

k) the word Torah = three letters

l) the name of Moses = three letters

m) the tribe of Levi = three letters

n) Moses has two assistants, Aaron and Miriam, and so on

And what of the Creation:

o) Proton, electron, neutron

p) the three primary colors

q) space, matter, and time (which is each one and three…space = length, breadth, and width; matter = solid liquid and gas amd up of the atom a oneness composed of three, electrons, protons and neutrons; and time = past, present and future)

r) Earth’s core, mantle, and crust, and on and on…

Each of us has to decide for ourselves whether or not we are going to believe what the word says! He indeed has revealed Himself in the things that are made. Now either we are going to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen rightly dividing the word of truth, or else, why bother pretending! Is He who is called the Word of God, the Lord Himself, or history’s best liar? And are we going to be believers or make believers? Which are you? I know! Eat well!

Maimonides, another Jewish scholar of renowned, was so upset by the difficulty this idea of God being echad (a Unity of plurality) posed, that is in the light of the Y’shua events, that in his 13 articles of faith, he changed all that in the Scriptures that would have been “echad“, that is this tri-Unity, with the word “yachid“ (to imply God’s numerical oneness) save article 2. The problem is that this taking away from, and adding to God’s word, was always strictly forbidden throughout the Scriptures and in the traditions of Judaism. It was considered abominable to the ethics of all the ancient Rabbi’s and Sages. Maimonides’ over concern disrespects the plenary rendering of the word and this becomes apparent here, even though put forth from a motive of sincerity. However, this is a clear violation of the very rules that Torah hermeneutics dictate in the Scriptures themselves. He obviously was willing to circumvent God’s commanding us not to add to or take away from His word, and not to waver to the right or the left, and thus altering or compromising the revealed truth. Did Maimonides do this for a theology, or to avoid the obvious conclusion? No matter how pure or sincere he considered his intent to be, he nonetheless acted on his human tendency to display his theological bias, and thus fell short of the Glory of God. Aren’t we all guilty of this at one point or another? Thank God for His merciful grace! Not to speak of the fact that Maimonides' (called Rambam) intentional negation is a very loud Rabbinical testimony to the doctrine’s actual presence in God’s Torah! Perhaps it would have been better to argue from the text as it was, or to simply ignore it all together!

Shalom Aliechem!

Paul S.
 
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Of course I believe in the Trinity.

And Jesus died ONLY because He gave up His spirit. No one killed Him. He gave up His own spirit on the cross.

Also, with our (humans) limited intelligence, we cannot possible comprehend everything pertaining to God, the Trinity included. Do I fully understand it? No. But I trust God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit fully and completely. I don't have to understand or comprehend it; I only have to trust and obey.
 
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