What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[KingJ]

Another example of doing unto others as you would want done unto you.

Do you take your salary, spend what you need on a borderline moderate lifestyle and give the rest to the poor and needy? Yes or No?

Just because we pass on ''not committing adultery, murder and tell ourselves that we don't ......entertain thoughts of adultery'' does not mean we score 100% on perfection in God's eyes. We have a serious lack of self discernment to even make such a statement. We are all going from glory to glory. We aspire to be more like Jesus daily. Most of us are currently at 1% of Jesus. My pastor is likely at 2%. My Mother, such a saint, at 2.6%. Me, likely at 1.1%. Mother Theresa was likely at 11.8%. Paul, perhaps 25%. Peter, 15%. Job, 45%. Abraham, 37%. We run the race to win, because we have not 'won' 1 Cor 9:24.

The context of ''sinner'' in 1 Pet 4:18, is unrepentant sinner. Someone who repents is not considered a sin - 'ner'.

If I come and visit you or Peace, is it going to be like visiting Mother Theresa?

 

[Bendito]

A holy and righteous God will not reside in an unholy unrighteous temple.
We are promised the gift of the Holy Ghost AFTER our "turn from" sin. (Acts 2:38)

So are you saying that if I ask Jesus into my heart, and later fall back into a sinful life, the Holy Spirit will leave me?

 

[At Peace]

Another example of doing unto others as you would want done unto you.
Do you take your salary, spend what you need on a borderline moderate lifestyle and give the rest to the poor and needy? Yes or No?

In an effort to raise your sights, I answer...yes.
Some times more than I "can".

Just because we pass on ''not committing adultery, murder and tell ourselves that we don't ......entertain thoughts of adultery'' does not mean we score 100% on perfection in God's eyes. We have a serious lack of self discernment to even make such a statement. We are all going from glory to glory. We aspire to be more like Jesus daily. Most of us are currently at 1% of Jesus. My pastor is likely at 2%. My Mother, such a saint, at 2.6%. Me, likely at 1.1%. Mother Theresa was likely at 11.8%. Paul, perhaps 25%. Peter, 15%. Job, 45%. Abraham, 37%. We run the race to win, because we have not 'won' 1 Cor 9:24.

Perfect is as perfect does.
To love those around us we must sympathize with their plight, and work to alleviate it.
There won't be any 99%ers in heaven.
Christ didn't suffer and die so we could cling to a single percent of filthy wickedness.

The context of ''sinner'' in 1 Pet 4:18, is unrepentant sinner. Someone who repents is not considered a sin - 'ner'.

Having said that, which are you?
Sinner? or ex-sinner?

If I come and visit you or Peace, is it going to be like visiting Mother Theresa?

Better.
She was still a sinner. A puppet of a false faith that refuses to submit to God.
And if you do want to visit, we can make those arrangements.

 

[At Peace]

You can be blameless, indeed! For about a day or a week or heck even a month. But not as God is. We are a free will creation. Blameless in that day or today, is not being guilty of prison. Or being guilty of a mortal sin. Blameless by our standards. Blameless by God's standards is however a completely different ball game.

Anyone who says they are perfect like God is a liar and sinning as they say that :rofl:.

Let's not support this new age teaching in the slightest and recognize it for what it is. All new age teaching seems to send us in a direction of being a demigod. Perfect, with powers and no need for God, just space for pride. Me, myself and I...are perfect.. all hail me...who stands among sinners calling themselves Christians....its so hilarious :smile:.

A sinner calling him self a "Christian" is pitiful.

 

[At Peace]

Another example.

If we are perfect we 'should' score 100% in putting others before ourselves right? Second commandment = Do unto others as you would want done unto you. Not ''do unto others as you do unto 'you' ''. Big difference.

So, if I fall into a lion cage at the zoo. You know that if you jumped in, I could stand on your shoulders and get out. Do you jump in?

I highly doubt you or Peace would jump in. Not for a stranger. No ways. Definitely for a spouse or child. But this random oversized, middle aged man with a hairy chest....haha no way. Lets call for assistance :rofl:.

There are righteous that are .....'''''barely''''.......saved 1 Pet 4:18. This fact needs to sink in! Perhaps some Christians would jump in for a stranger. Not all.

But what of those "some"?
Would you continue to try and prove they were just as wicked as...any false believer?

 

[KingJ]

Better.
She was still a sinner. A puppet of a false faith that refuses to submit to God.
And if you do want to visit, we can make those arrangements.

Mother Theresa may have been in the wrong Christian denomination but yet she laid her life down completely for God and others. No offence but I think you are 1% of her. As am I :wink:.

What car do you drive? what house do you live in? what clothes do you wear? what percentage of your salary is donated? Do your answers to these show 100% modesty?

 

[KingJ]

In an effort to raise your sights, I answer...yes.

Rude + lie = venial sins you need to repent of.

Perfect is as perfect does.
To love those around us we must sympathize with their plight, and work to alleviate it.

I will eat my shoes if you do 1% of what Mother Theresa did for others.

There won't be any 99%ers in heaven.
Christ didn't suffer and die so we could cling to a single percent of filthy wickedness.

You just don't get it. Our hearts are after God's. So when we sin we repent. It does not mean we never sin. If our heart is not after God's we will sin and if we repent, God will not trust it.

Intent is everything. God judges intent. Not outwardly, like you are doing / proposing we do. You are guilty of John 7:24.

Having said that, which are you?
Sinner? or ex-sinner?

A saint who makes many mistakes.

'Sinner' refers to someone who does not repent or make any effort to turn from sin. Examples mentioned in scripture like 1 Cor 6 point more to mortal sins as opposed to venial sins. But all sin, no matter how small, needs to be repented of.

Tell me, do you kick your kids out your house or disown them, if they are disobedient?

You simply do not understand what a Christian / Christianity is.

 

[Born Again 2004]

What does it mean to be perfect? And can you please explain it to me in terms that aren't abstract?

I think we all miss the mark. We are Christians here and we are talking about the Bible, Jesus and God. We are talking not in terms of human or secular perfection, we are talking about God's standard for perfection, which he revealed to us in Jesus. Does one really think they are as perfect as Jesus or God?

 

[Dave M]

@At Peace you are very confused on your theology and should seek much better teachers. Luckily it is not theology that is as important as the condition of the heart and you seem to have your heart in the right place I think.

To think you can be sinless here and now is not to understand you are sin in the flesh. Your spirit has been changed once born again but your flesh is still the evil vile flesh that it has always been but now God has given you a new spirit to be able to have victory over your flesh. But if you were sinless you would not need victory over your flesh because your flesh would not be sinful. Your flesh does not change when you become born again.

 

[At Peace]

Mother Theresa may have been in the wrong Christian denomination but yet she laid her life down completely for God and others. No offence but I think you are 1% of her. As am I

Had she loved God above all else, she would have fled the organization getting the credit for her labors.

What car do you drive? what house do you live in? what clothes do you wear? what percentage of your salary is donated? Do your answers to these show 100% modesty?

Don't be angry with me for your 1% life style.
Turn from sin, and give your car, clothes, house, and salary to God for the uses he prescribes.
Got a car?
Use it to transport neighbors without one to the doctor or bank or store.
Got a salary?
Use it to treat some poor guy to lunch or supper.
Got more than one coat?
Donate the unworn to a charity.
Got money?
Use some of it to have fliers printed explaining God's mission statement; and put one on the car next to you every time you park at a store or event.
(Be ready to explain it on the phone, later on.)
What is the mission statement of Christ?
Love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself.
Don't hide faith "under the bed".

You make it sound difficult to be a 100%er, when it is God in me doing the works..
Look for ways to use your profession for the good of others.
I am a retired mechanic now, but have helped countless folks with car problems.
That is just an example of spreading the grace of God and manifesting ones submission to God

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings men,

why are you so upset with one member who claims not to sin?
I don't understand it.


Bless you ....><>

 

[At Peace]

@At Peace you are very confused on your theology and should seek much better teachers. Luckily it is not theology that is as important as the condition of the heart and you seem to have your heart in the right place I think.

It is up to you to judge whether or not someone teaching men to obey God is from God or not.
I made my decision long ago.

To think you can be sinless here and now is not to understand you are sin in the flesh. Your spirit has been changed once born again but your flesh is still the evil vile flesh that it has always been but now God has given you a new spirit to be able to have victory over your flesh. But if you were sinless you would not need victory over your flesh because your flesh would not be sinful. Your flesh does not change when you become born again.

I disagree, about the flesh not also being made new.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
I have been reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), and cannot bring forth evil fruit.
My "skin" doesn't control me like it once did.
My Spirit controls me now, thanks be to God.

Have you ever fasted?
Fasting is a way to show the "skin" who is really the boss.
Our "skin" can't commit sin without the complicity of the mind, and my mind is the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:16)

 

[B-A-C]

why are you so upset with one member who claims not to sin?
I don't understand it.

That may be part of the problem....
But on the other hand... saying you aren't saved if you sin may be going to far the other direction.

 

[B-A-C]

I have been reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

I am always leary of on "one verse" theology. Especially when that isn't a good translation.

The word in the original manuscripts is...

ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.
Total KJV occurrences: 576

A better translation would be...

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings men,

why are you so upset with one member who claims not to sin?
I don't understand it.

Bless you ....><>

In one word, pride.

New age teaching in Christianity is taking two distinctive paths.

1. Everyone is a Christian in place of everyone can be a Christian. Stay Muslim, gay and what not. God loves you and you are going to heaven.

2. You are a demigod. Your are perfect. You have the power to heal the sick. Your are god in the flesh. Me, me, me.....Satanism.

Saying we are perfect is in direct conflict with Mark 10:18. Only God is good.

Now, you can convince yourself and many others that we are perfect in Christ as their is truth to that. But we need to better discern what is actually being said.

We pray ''Lord, your will be done''. We pray ''thank you Lord for Jesus and His righteousness, nothing of me''. We pray ''I repent of all my sins and forgive all those who sin against me'' as Jesus taught us.

But instead people are praying '''Lord I know your will''. ''Lord thank you for making me perfect''.

Pride and arrogance.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

In one word, pride.

I didn't realise.
So if someone has pride, what is the way a regenerated man should address that person, given that pride is no worse than most other labelled 'sins'? (especially if the regenerated man who is upset is no better by their own standards and declarations, being a man who sins)

If I have great pride, would you allow yourself to become agitated and lose your peace over it? Would you continue to love me and encourage me with gentle words or is there a more direct and in our face way of dealing with anyone who has faults greater than yours/mine/etc?

thank you for sharing your thoughts about this. I am still somewhat not understanding that Christian men, not rabid pseudo christian man, seem to want to trip up a man who in their eyes is a fellow sinner whether he likes to think he is or not (or agrees that he is or... is in fact not - or is that impossible?)

I shall try to take this up again in another post as i am not wanting to appear to direct my comments at any one member. We can all be admonished and edified and that should be our purpose, should it not, to build one another up?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

Greetings men,

why are you so upset with one member who claims not to sin?
I don't understand it.


Bless you ....><>

Hey Bear

I am not upset at all, more concerned for the fellow that he is in denial. no man but Jesus was sin free. The only people I can recall claiming to be sinless in the bible were the pharisee, and we know how Jesus felt about tham. Bear are you sin free?? do you know anyone who is sin free ?

I think the fellow is getting confused about practicing sin with evil intentions and stumbling.

Dont you realize we can brake any of the 10 commandments with out lifting a finger simply by thinking the wrong thought.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,
I didn't realise.
So if someone has pride,

It is a doctrine that pushes pride.

Of course we can have pride and be guilty of being out of line. This is the internet. The issue I see though is that we will repent and apologize if admonished. He won't. He does not sin.

I believe you need to look closer at was has been said to.

Personally, if we were having this discussion a while back I would have brushed Peace off as someone I don't need to engage with as nobody will take him seriously. ''No sin'', lol.

But, after seeing many, even a good friend of mine fall into this, I feel a rebuke and discussion on Christian common sense is required.

I can still not believe we are actually discussing this .

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

when we were not Christian, what was our condition?\

When we [a man] became [becomes] a Christian, what becomes of or happens to our condition?

Is there a place and point where we can completely disregard any and all past condition [that is, our condition prior to Christ] to the point that we have zero stain and or smell of the old?
Or in other words, what I am now is,

• a) a sinner saved by grace
• b) a man who used to be a sinner
• c) still a sinner
• d) a saint [with no prior conviction(s)

In some countries, a person can file/apply to have past criminal convictions 'spent'. That means that all records of that conviction do no longer 'exist' and it becomes a legal condition to the point that if anyone ever tries to bring up spent convictions to cause you any grief [for employment, for example] they can themselves be breaching the law that protects you [the person with a spent conviction] Even the record of your conviction being spent is protected.
(** Note, the record still remains on file but is not even accessible by local authorities. It is as much as possible non existent even though there is still a record kept)

So, if a man ceases from sin, can it be said that he once was a sinner, so except for the shed blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, his sin would remain... or what do we do with such a matter?

If a person is foolish enough to get a gender change, from what I know about it, you can not refer to the person to have once have been or that they are a changed male/female. For sporting purposes, they are finding it a difficult thing because a physically robust and strong man who then 'changes' gender to be 'female' will have much greater advantage over other naturally occurring females.

But what does the Bible say about who we are as Christians? What are we to declare?(about ourselves)

And how does all this fit in with being perfect, Scripturally?

Are we perfect because we don't sin or do we not sin because we are perfect?

Most importantly, is, what does the Lord think about us and why?


If a man is convinced about things that he considers to be sin. and then if another man has no idea about any of those things being sin, and does them, is he guilty of sin?


A few thoughts and questions to stimulate us.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

It is a doctrine that pushes pride.

Greetings @KingJ ,

Forgive me please but I honestly have not seen this. Perhaps add 'naive' to my list of character quirks?
I understand your caring concerns and agree that if one is caught by such deceptive thinking about them selves that to do whatever possible to help them is generally accepted as being good.
If we follow the Lord it will be what ever He directs us to do, which might even be to walk on by. It's a hard one for most but I think there are enough references in Scripture about doing so. The Lord has a plan or He doesn't. We have intentions but that does not guarantee that our intentions are in line with or following the Lord (if we believe He guides us by His Spirit).

Regarding any one Member here, I have not seen as you see, but that does not make either of us right.


Thank you for your kindness in replying,


Bless you ....><>