What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[Br. Bear]

That may be part of the problem....
But on the other hand... saying you aren't saved if you sin may be going to far the other direction.

Thank you @B-A-C

Hey Bear

I am not upset at all, more concerned for the fellow that he is in denial. no man but Jesus was sin free. The only people I can recall claiming to be sinless in the bible were the pharisee, and we know how Jesus felt about tham. Bear are you sin free?? do you know anyone who is sin free ?

I think the fellow is getting confused about practicing sin with evil intentions and stumbling.

Dont you realize we can brake any of the 10 commandments with out lifting a finger simply by thinking the wrong thought.

Thank you @Dave M

 

[Born Again 2004]

You make it sound difficult to be a 100%er, when it is God in me doing the works..
Look for ways to use your profession for the good of others.

• The main thread here is on Perfection,of which, you say you perform yourself 100% of the time 24/7
• Paul continued to point out that righteousness ( including the power to live rightly) was a gift o of God: Roman 1:17; Romans 8:4
• He preached this was by God's grace and NOT achieved by human effort.
• You live in a secular / sinful world and subject to sin while you are alive. To be perfect, would be to know God perfectly...that is not going to happen in this physical realm.
• True perfection is God alone and he is spirit.
• No matter what, because you have Christ in you, you may not be condemned for lack of true perfection but, while here, in the flesh, you will sin.
• Not until you die, in spirit, will you be perfected, see God face to face and know him , as he knows you!

 

[B-A-C]

I see some extremism here on both sides.

One side says... we have to be absolutely perfect. No room for mistakes at all. No sin at all, not even once... or to the fire you go.
(Armenianism to the extreme)

The other side says... we have grace and love, we can sin all we want. They say they can never stop sinning.
(Cavinism to the extreme)

I believe there is some room for moderation and balance. Some will say compromise, but I say grace is a compromise.

We don't have to be 99.9999999999999999999999999999 % pure gold.
But on the other hand....
We can't be 0.0000000000000001 % pure gold either.

So how "good" do we need to be? How "pure"? How Holy?
I would say none of us are a good judge of where we really are in God's eyes on this.
Nearly all of us think we are much better than we actually are. But for two different reasons.

There is a teaching that says we can be perfect. (There were a number of "blameless" people in the Bible besides Jesus).
There is another teaching that says we can't be, and never will be. (while in the flesh ) So why even try?

If we can't be... then what makes up the difference? Grace, mercy.

Jesus forgives where we can't be perfect. That is grace.

There are two parts to grace.... Br. Bear asks this in another thread... but I will answer it here because I think it has more to do with "perfection".

There is the initial grace we are all given when we first become a believer. We are forgiven of all our past sins.

But then.... there is a continuing grace, after we become believers... for the sins we do after becoming a believer.
But the Bible says we are forgiven ..."IF"... we repent. The Bible says it is possible to go too far and fall short of grace.

So... even though there is grace for believers.... we still have to repent.
If you are still in bondage to the same habitual sins you were before you got "saved" (fill in the blank) years ago.
Then you haven't repented. Plain and simple.

There are two kinds of sins. One kind I call "spur of the moment" sins.
I hit my thumb with a hammer and I say "oh shoot" (or something like that). I didn't plan on saying that word, it just came out.
I always ask for forgiveness when one of these "spur of the moment" sins happens. I think we are forgiven for these sins.

The other kind of sin is the problem. Now I'm not comparing "venial" , or rating different sins here. Hating is as bad as murder.
Lusting is as bad as adultery. The type of sin doesn't really matter. What does matter is the frequency.

If I look at pornography once or twice, I believe God will forgive me.
If I committed homosexual acts after I became a believer, I believe God will forgive me.
If I've lied, if I've stolen, if I've lusted.... I believe God will forgive me.

However if I've been looking at pornography every day for the (fill in the blank) years I have been saved. (say 10 or 20 years).
Then I haven't really repented. Saying you're sorry is NOT repenting. These are different from "spur of the moment" sins because you did them yesterday,
you'll do them today, and you know you'll do them again tomorrow. You even believe you can't stop doing them.

Sin, ask for forgiveness.. sin, ask for forgiveness.. sin, ask for forgiveness... you are still stuck in the same habitual sin you were before you became a believer.
This person is in serious trouble.

They believe they are "saved". They believe Jesus's grace covers "everything". Because it isn't "our righteousness", it's His. (The bible says otherwise)
We can never be righteous enough. But we can certainly be sinful enough. There are some people who believe they are saved... who will hear the words...
"depart from me, you who practice sinning".

The Bible talks about those who continue sinning "willfully". Those who do not repent. If this is you... it's not too late. But you need to STOP!!
Stop right now. Today!

Don't keep convincing yourself that you can't stop and Jesus will cover it. If you're practicing in... willfully continuing in sin everyday... you're in trouble.
Some say we can't be perfect 27 x 7. Hogwash.. yes we can! I may not be able to be perfect for a year, five years... But I can certainly not sin for 24 hours.
I am willing to say I have gone a week without cursing, lusting (for any woman but my wife), hating, .. even over eating.

Going 24 x 7, we can do that. Going 24 x 365 is a little harder, but we should be striving for it. You might surprise yourself. I did.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I see some extremism here on both sides.

One side says... we have to be absolutely perfect. No room for mistakes at all. No sin at all, not even once... or to the fire you go.
(Armenianism to the extreme)

The other side says... we have grace and love, we can sin all we want. They say they can never stop sinning.
(Cavinism to the extreme)

• Armenian-ism....Calvinism ......bologna-ism.
• It is Bible-ism and God-ism... Only God is spirit and only he is perfect.
• BTW, why do you ALWAYS say, " we say you can sin all you want"? Never said that or heard that, except from you...why is that?

 

[At Peace]

I am always leary of on "one verse" theology. Especially when that isn't a good translation.

The word in the original manuscripts is...

ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.
Total KJV occurrences: 576

A better translation would be...

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What you are saying is...apple trees WILL bear oranges, but won't make a "practice" of it.
Your "interpretation" denies the impossibility of God committing sin.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.
Show me where a vine can bring forth fruit dissimilar to it's progenitor.

 

[At Peace]

In one word, pride.
New age teaching in Christianity is taking two distinctive paths.
1. Everyone is a Christian in place of everyone can be a Christian. Stay Muslim, gay and what not. God loves you and you are going to heaven.
2. You are a demigod. Your are perfect. You have the power to heal the sick. Your are god in the flesh. Me, me, me.....Satanism.
Saying we are perfect is in direct conflict with Mark 10:18. Only God is good.
Now, you can convince yourself and many others that we are perfect in Christ as their is truth to that. But we need to better discern what is actually being said.
We pray ''Lord, your will be done''. We pray ''thank you Lord for Jesus and His righteousness, nothing of me''. We pray ''I repent of all my sins and forgive all those who sin against me'' as Jesus taught us.
But instead people are praying '''Lord I know your will''. ''Lord thank you for making me perfect''.
Pride and arrogance.

Are you opining that continuing to serve sin instead of obedience to God is NOT pride?
Are you opining that in spite of sin you are in good standing with God?
Are you opining that a false repentance from sin will amount to eternal life with God?
I hope not.

As you consider obedience to God as "new age teaching", do you consider continued justification of a sinful life as "old age teaching"?
What happened to the disobedient who left Egypt?
How about to the kingdom of Israel who turned from God?
How about those who crucified Jesus?
Did they not all lose their right to abide in the promised land?
Why would you expect a better outcome this time?

You"re teaching us that continuation in the OT will be sufficient to gain eternal life: that continual sin, repentance, sin, repentance, sin, repentance is the normal disposition of the converted.
Where is Christ in that mess?
How come your god doesn't have the power to allow you to quit telling lies and murdering your neighbors?
To think you can sin without consequences is arrogance against God.

 

[At Peace]

That may be part of the problem....
But on the other hand... saying you aren't saved if you sin may be going to far the other direction.

So those NOT born of God will be saved?
Is nothing required of us at out conversion from being ungodly to being servants of the living God?
Just sorta slow down on the wickedness and iniquity because we are so happy we have escaped hell?

You are lobbying for the "goats" who will be separated from the "sheep" on the last day.

 

[At Peace]

Hey Bear
I am not upset at all, more concerned for the fellow that he is in denial. no man but Jesus was sin free. The only people I can recall claiming to be sinless in the bible were the pharisee, and we know how Jesus felt about tham. Bear are you sin free?? do you know anyone who is sin free ?
I think the fellow is getting confused about practicing sin with evil intentions and stumbling.
Dont you realize we can brake any of the 10 commandments with out lifting a finger simply by thinking the wrong thought.

Do any of the following verses apply to you?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
[33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
[34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. “ (John 8:32-36)
"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)
" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

 

[At Peace]

It is a doctrine that pushes pride.

Of course we can have pride and be guilty of being out of line. This is the internet. The issue I see though is that we will repent and apologize if admonished. He won't. He does not sin.

I believe you need to look closer at was has been said to.

Personally, if we were having this discussion a while back I would have brushed Peace off as someone I don't need to engage with as nobody will take him seriously. ''No sin'', lol.

But, after seeing many, even a good friend of mine fall into this, I feel a rebuke and discussion on Christian common sense is required.

I can still not believe we are actually discussing this .

It pains me no end to see that you consider loving God above all else as...rebukable.

 

[At Peace]

• The main thread here is on Perfection,of which, you say you perform yourself 100% of the time 24/7
• Paul continued to point out that righteousness ( including the power to live rightly) was a gift o of God: Roman 1:17; Romans 8:4
• He preached this was by God's grace and NOT achieved by human effort.
• You live in a secular / sinful world and subject to sin while you are alive. To be perfect, would be to know God perfectly...that is not going to happen in this physical realm.
• True perfection is God alone and he is spirit.
• No matter what, because you have Christ in you, you may not be condemned for lack of true perfection but, while here, in the flesh, you will sin.
• Not until you die, in spirit, will you be perfected, see God face to face and know him , as he knows you!

As you use "Born Again" as your moniker, may I ask what happened to the "old you"?

 

[At Peace]

I see some extremism here on both sides.

One side says... we have to be absolutely perfect. No room for mistakes at all. No sin at all, not even once... or to the fire you go.
(Armenianism to the extreme)

The other side says... we have grace and love, we can sin all we want. They say they can never stop sinning.
(Cavinism to the extreme)

I believe there is some room for moderation and balance. Some will say compromise, but I say grace is a compromise.

We don't have to be 99.9999999999999999999999999999 % pure gold.
But on the other hand....
We can't be 0.0000000000000001 % pure gold either.

So how "good" do we need to be? How "pure"? How Holy?
I would say none of us are a good judge of where we really are in God's eyes on this.
Nearly all of us think we are much better than we actually are. But for two different reasons.

There is a teaching that says we can be perfect. (There were a number of "blameless" people in the Bible besides Jesus).
There is another teaching that says we can't be, and never will be. (while in the flesh ) So why even try?

If we can't be... then what makes up the difference? Grace, mercy.

Jesus forgives where we can't be perfect. That is grace.

There are two parts to grace.... Br. Bear asks this in another thread... but I will answer it here because I think it has more to do with "perfection".

There is the initial grace we are all given when we first become a believer. We are forgiven of all our past sins.

But then.... there is a continuing grace, after we become believers... for the sins we do after becoming a believer.
But the Bible says we are forgiven ..."IF"... we repent. The Bible says it is possible to go too far and fall short of grace.

So... even though there is grace for believers.... we still have to repent.
If you are still in bondage to the same habitual sins you were before you got "saved" (fill in the blank) years ago.
Then you haven't repented. Plain and simple.

There are two kinds of sins. One kind I call "spur of the moment" sins.
I hit my thumb with a hammer and I say "oh shoot" (or something like that). I didn't plan on saying that word, it just came out.
I always ask for forgiveness when one of these "spur of the moment" sins happens. I think we are forgiven for these sins.

The other kind of sin is the problem. Now I'm not comparing "venial" , or rating different sins here. Hating is as bad as murder.
Lusting is as bad as adultery. The type of sin doesn't really matter. What does matter is the frequency.

If I look at pornography once or twice, I believe God will forgive me.
If I committed homosexual acts after I became a believer, I believe God will forgive me.
If I've lied, if I've stolen, if I've lusted.... I believe God will forgive me.

However if I've been looking at pornography every day for the (fill in the blank) years I have been saved. (say 10 or 20 years).
Then I haven't really repented. Saying you're sorry is NOT repenting. These are different from "spur of the moment" sins because you did them yesterday,
you'll do them today, and you know you'll do them again tomorrow. You even believe you can't stop doing them.

Sin, ask for forgiveness.. sin, ask for forgiveness.. sin, ask for forgiveness... you are still stuck in the same habitual sin you were before you became a believer.
This person is in serious trouble.

They believe they are "saved". They believe Jesus's grace covers "everything". Because it isn't "our righteousness", it's His. (The bible says otherwise)
We can never be righteous enough. But we can certainly be sinful enough. There are some people who believe they are saved... who will hear the words...
"depart from me, you who practice sinning".

The Bible talks about those who continue sinning "willfully". Those who do not repent. If this is you... it's not too late. But you need to STOP!!
Stop right now. Today!

Don't keep convincing yourself that you can't stop and Jesus will cover it. If you're practicing in... willfully continuing in sin everyday... you're in trouble.
Some say we can't be perfect 27 x 7. Hogwash.. yes we can! I may not be able to be perfect for a year, five years... But I can certainly not sin for 24 hours.
I am willing to say I have gone a week without cursing, lusting (for any woman but my wife), hating, .. even over eating.

Going 24 x 7, we can do that. Going 24 x 365 is a little harder, but we should be striving for it. You might surprise yourself. I did.

If you want to write of extremism, how about..."God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
Do you consider the "random viewing of pornography" as light or darkness?

 

[At Peace]

• Armenian-ism....Calvinism ......bologna-ism.
• It is Bible-ism and God-ism... Only God is spirit and only he is perfect.
• BTW, why do you ALWAYS say, " we say you can sin all you want"? Never said that or heard that, except from you...why is that?

I hate reading when folks say "Jesus was imperfect".
He was in the flesh, right?
He was tempted. right?
He wasn't spirit, right?
And yet...He was raised from the dead because death couldn't hold Him!
Your parameters for perfection need to be widened.

 

[amadeus2]

• Armenian-ism....Calvinism ......bologna-ism.
• It is Bible-ism and God-ism... Only God is spirit and only he is perfect.
• BTW, why do you ALWAYS say, " we say you can sin all you want"? Never said that or heard that, except from you...why is that?

Perhaps the difference is in what God considers sin versus what man considers sin. What man thinks is meaningless if it disagrees with what God knows. Who is in a position to know always without error what God calls sin. Personally God may convict us of something and then the burden is on us, even if we cannot fix it without His help. So then does not knowing when to ask for help come into the picture. We should, I believe, always be asking God for help, but we will even fail in that unless we are also asking God to help us ask when and as we should.

 

[amadeus2]

I hate reading when folks say "Jesus was imperfect".
He was in the flesh, right?
He was tempted. right?
He wasn't spirit, right?
And yet...He was raised from the dead because death couldn't hold Him!
Your parameters for perfection need to be widened.

Jesus was not imperfect but when He started out as a man, but he was incomplete. When he had completed all the work as a man that was his to do, then he was both perfect and complete.

 

[Bendito]

Greetings,

when we were not Christian, what was our condition?\

When we [a man] became [becomes] a Christian, what becomes of or happens to our condition?

Is there a place and point where we can completely disregard any and all past condition [that is, our condition prior to Christ] to the point that we have zero stain and or smell of the old?
Or in other words, what I am now is,

• a) a sinner saved by grace
• b) a man who used to be a sinner
• c) still a sinner
• d) a saint [with no prior conviction(s)

In some countries, a person can file/apply to have past criminal convictions 'spent'. That means that all records of that conviction do no longer 'exist' and it becomes a legal condition to the point that if anyone ever tries to bring up spent convictions to cause you any grief [for employment, for example] they can themselves be breaching the law that protects you [the person with a spent conviction] Even the record of your conviction being spent is protected.
(** Note, the record still remains on file but is not even accessible by local authorities. It is as much as possible non existent even though there is still a record kept)

So, if a man ceases from sin, can it be said that he once was a sinner, so except for the shed blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, his sin would remain... or what do we do with such a matter?

If a person is foolish enough to get a gender change, from what I know about it, you can not refer to the person to have once have been or that they are a changed male/female. For sporting purposes, they are finding it a difficult thing because a physically robust and strong man who then 'changes' gender to be 'female' will have much greater advantage over other naturally occurring females.

But what does the Bible say about who we are as Christians? What are we to declare?(about ourselves)

And how does all this fit in with being perfect, Scripturally?

Are we perfect because we don't sin or do we not sin because we are perfect?

Most importantly, is, what does the Lord think about us and why?


If a man is convinced about things that he considers to be sin. and then if another man has no idea about any of those things being sin, and does them, is he guilty of sin?


A few thoughts and questions to stimulate us.

Bless you ....><>

I'll only answer the multiple choice. (I do realize its not a question)
What we are now is B and D. We are not sinners saved by grace....We were sinners, and then we got saved by grace... and we are not sinners now...There is no way we can be a sinner and be 'the righteousness of God...'at the same time.
We are D because when we were born again, the man who was a sinner died. Then we were born again a brand new creation...The new creation was totally sinless, and this has no prior convictions.
Of course it does not say we cannot fall down, but if we do, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (restore us to righteousness.)

 

[Born Again 2004]

I hate reading when folks say "Jesus was imperfect".
He was in the flesh, right?
He was tempted. right?
He wasn't spirit, right?
And yet...He was raised from the dead because death couldn't hold Him!
Your parameters for perfection need to be widened.

• In the flesh yes! At the same time very God, yes!
• Tempted....I think to be tempted would be to have and urge or inclination to do something....please show us where show where the Devil's temptations had this effect on Jesus, in fact he said: Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve him only.'" Presented with Temptations, yes...Tempted , no!
• No widening need. If we (Christians?) are all talking about sin and perfection , it would be by God's standards not by ours!

 

[Born Again 2004]

We should, I believe, always be asking God for help, but we will even fail in that unless we are also asking God to help us ask when and as we should.

Yes, always in prayer!

 

[B-A-C]

Show me where a vine can bring forth fruit dissimilar to it's progenitor.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

The ree wasn't just any tree in any garden. The tree is in the master's vineyard. But that doesn't mean it will bear fruit.
Even if the master prunes it, waters it, fertilizes it... still doesn't mean it will bear fruit.
However a waiting period has been give here. "Three years" in this case.
.. but we do agree on one thing here... if it doesn't eventually bear fruit.. into the fire it goes.

 

[B-A-C]

If you want to write of extremism, how about..."God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
Do you consider the "random viewing of pornography" as light or darkness?

Are you God? When you can make that claim, I will consider if you have no darkness in you.

 

[B-A-C]

• Armenian-ism....Calvinism ......bologna-ism.

• It is Bible-ism and God-ism... Only God is spirit and only he is perfect.

Hehe, heh... I actually agree with you here. But unfortunately much that is said on here has little to do with the Bible
or even God.