What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[At Peace]

Jesus was not imperfect but when He started out as a man, but he was incomplete. When he had completed all the work as a man that was his to do, then he was both perfect and complete.

Name one "work" that made Jesus perfect.
Please remember that Jesus and His Father were already "one".

 

[At Peace]

I'll only answer the multiple choice. (I do realize its not a question)
What we are now is B and D. We are not sinners saved by grace....We were sinners, and then we got saved by grace... and we are not sinners now...There is no way we can be a sinner and be 'the righteousness of God...'at the same time.
We are D because when we were born again, the man who was a sinner died. Then we were born again a brand new creation...The new creation was totally sinless, and this has no prior convictions.
Of course it does not say we cannot fall down, but if we do, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (restore us to righteousness.)

The "falling down" is a manifestation that any prior "turn from" sin was a lie to God.
If you are born of God you cannot "fall down". (1 John 3:9)

 

[At Peace]

• In the flesh yes! At the same time very God, yes!
• Tempted....I think to be tempted would be to have and urge or inclination to do something....please show us where show where the Devil's temptations had this effect on Jesus, in fact he said: Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve him only.'" Presented with Temptations, yes...Tempted , no!
• No widening need. If we (Christians?) are all talking about sin and perfection , it would be by God's standards not by ours!

It is written..."Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." (Matt 4:1)
Your "thoughts" need to conform to scripture.
Are not His "standards" accomplishable?
I think so, as Jesus commanded "perfect" in Matt 5:48.

 

[At Peace]

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

The ree wasn't just any tree in any garden. The tree is in the master's vineyard. But that doesn't mean it will bear fruit.
Even if the master prunes it, waters it, fertilizes it... still doesn't mean it will bear fruit.
However a waiting period has been give here. "Three years" in this case.
.. but we do agree on one thing here... if it doesn't eventually bear fruit.. into the fire it goes.

Did the tree bring forth grapes?
Was it expected to bring forth anything but figs?
That is what some infer when they insist that those born of God still commit sin.
1 John 3:9 says that isn't going to happen.

 

[At Peace]

Are you God? When you can make that claim, I will consider if you have no darkness in you.

Are you walking in darkness while saying you have fellowship with God? (1 John 1:5)
Why don't you instead treasure the fact that you have been reborn of incorruptible seed? (1 Peter 1:23)

 

[At Peace]

I am grateful to God for the chance to bring into the light the power and grace of God.
I am also glad so many have chosen to participate in the challenges to my "doctrine which is according to Godliness", (1 Tim 6:3), that God has graciously equipt me to answer.
I hope some will be provoked to "cease from sin". (1 Peter 4:1)

 

[Bendito]

The "falling down" is a manifestation that any prior "turn from" sin was a lie to God.
If you are born of God you cannot "fall down". (1 John 3:9)

So you're saying that if I forget and get angry, I'm not saved? Show scripture for that please. for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. We know what you say...but what does the Word say?

 

[Br. Bear]

@B-A-C

Greetings,

this is your first reply from page 1.

I know this isn't exactly what you asked, but....

Matt 5:43; "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Matt 5:44; "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt 5:45; so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5:46; "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Matt 5:47; "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I think sometimes context helps. This passage end by telling us "to be perfect". Not only perfect... but as perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect!!

The passage starts off with loving your neighbor. It goes on to say we have to love our enemies too.
... then there is a conditional statement... "so that you may sons of"... (your heavenly Father). If we want to be sons of God, it is a
requirement to love "everyone". (So much for grace alone) We need to love even the hard to love. If we only love those who love us back... what reward is there?

It seems that being "perfect" in this context... is simply loving everyone. Really loving them without exception.

May I dissect it a little?

If we want to be sons of God, it is a
requirement to love "everyone".

is this what is written or is this a broad way to interpret it? Everyone?

what about this? As written or our interpretation?

We need to love even the hard to love.

Our Father loves because He is.
The idea of 'hard to love' leaves an open door for failure and also determines a prerequisite of the enemy being the problem we need to overcome within ourselves in order to love, Father style. To love your enemies does not require any concept of 'hard to love'.
Turn the other cheek is maintaining ones position as a Child of the Father, disarming the enemy thereby. As is loving your enemy. A soldier is not less a soldier of the army he is part of because of who the enemy is; because he is still a soldier of that army, he continues to represent that army. In the war of love (as the passage tells) it is one of doing the Heavenly thing without partiality or favouritism.

He sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

, because why? Because He is. If we are to be, then we should/must/will do likewise.
{I confess i have failed at this from my prospective many times, so I am aware of my position regarding preaching that which I practice} {Are there lessons in love and loving?} {perhaps that is what making disciples is about??}

So, to love the hard to love is probably not the correct take on it. Love your enemies... exactly the same as you love your neighbour. Who said your neighbour was lovable by men's standards?
Do not hate your enemies. If God is Love which He is and we are His Children, we must therefore do likewise and therefore be likewise. Hate is no longer part of the equation. As i am... Be holy for/because your Father in Heaven is holy. Not because it is hard or because anyone is hard to love. The only hardness is because of nurturing the flesh rather than cherishing the Life we now have in Christ our Love.

I think you would be amongst the first to agree that this

It seems that being "perfect" in this context... is simply loving everyone.

is a little squishy and fluffy, B-A-C because it is a little too loose and all embracing, wiping out all other things. Almost borderline new agey. Do we really understand love and the ability to do so?

You mentioned context. Rightly so. The last verse you provided is also the last verse in the chapter and discourse from Jesus [to/with His Disciples?] which starts
1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

or is the sentence, 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. a preliminary to the next Chapter or somehow a midway command or statement to the whole discourse?

6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep 's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

In other words, are we limiting the idea or understanding of 'perfect by excluding the greater context? Or perhaps not? You were looking at the 'love your enemies' part and suggest that is what the perfect was about along with the everyone else.
Not screwing you down, B-A-C. Rather, attempting to take it a bit further and discuss what you took the time to say/write.

I like the way the discourse ends, especially in the context here on this thread and about the word perfect. Chapter 7 of Matthew...
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Name one "work" that made Jesus perfect.
Please remember that Jesus and His Father were already "one".

• ARE you REALLY questioning the perfection of Jesus?
• Jesus was every bit man!! 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Romans 5:15
  But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Br. Bear]

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. KJV
For this is My blood that establishes the covenant; it is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins. HCSB

Exodus 24:8
So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; Psalm 19:7

 

[Born Again 2004]

It is written..."Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." (Matt 4:1)

• Oh, you silly man!
• Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted the devil.
• To be tempted by the Devil,,,NOT , that he was tempted!
• You need to understand Jesus and scripture!

 

[Br. Bear]

speaking of Jesus Christ...

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15

 

[Born Again 2004]

speaking of Jesus Christ...

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15

 

[Born Again 2004]

He was the unblemished Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice. If it were not true, then it is a lie and we all are lost!

 

[B-A-C]

Being tempted is not a sin. Giving in to the temptation is a sin.

 

[Dave M]

what about raging hormones? I mean lets say you see a women and your hormones rage inside of you, have you already commuted adultery with the flesh? I would say yes. But with the spirit you fight off those feelings and turn to Jesus for help to control your thoughts so you take no action and get your thoughts together.

Have you sinned??

 

[Hekuran]

what about raging hormones? I mean lets say you see a women and your hormones rage inside of you, have you already commuted adultery with the flesh? I would say yes. But with the spirit you fight off those feelings and turn to Jesus for help to control your thoughts so you take no action and get your thoughts together.

Have you sinned??

My experience: a woman steps out in front of me and in the same instant I see that she has the most fabulous legs.

Now I have a decision to make - do I allow my gaze to stay with her and enjoy a little fantasy, or do resist temptation and direct my eyes to another part of the street?

Jesus in the sermon on the mount is perfectly clear about God's view on this.

 

[At Peace]

So you're saying that if I forget and get angry, I'm not saved? Show scripture for that please. for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. We know what you say...but what does the Word say?

Forget?
How can a son of God forget who his Father is?
True religion isn't a hobby, it is a life style.
Besides, being angry isn't a sin. (Eph 4:26)

Doesn't every man have a conscience?
Doesn't every man know that theft and murder are wrong?
Can you "forget" that adultery is evil and not of God?
When our conscience says..."whoa there, this is wrong", the Holy Spirit gives us a way to escape the temptation...every time.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes!

 

[At Peace]

• ARE you REALLY questioning the perfection of Jesus?
• Jesus was every bit man!! 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Romans 5:15
  But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

Not at all.
You reference my answer to Amadeus in post #105, and my response to him inquired as to "what work made Jesus perfect?
Having reread his post I see he wasn't saying Jesus was later made "perfect" (by some deed), but that He was made "complete" after some unnamed deed.

 

[At Peace]

• Oh, you silly man!
• Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted the devil.
• To be tempted by the Devil,,,NOT , that he was tempted!
• You need to understand Jesus and scripture!

I have no problem understanding what is in this verse of scripture.
Why does your version of scripture omit the word "of"?