Speaking in Tongues: Required for Regeneration?.

[vhusley]

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Act_19:29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

1Co_16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


I do not read in Act 19 Paul baptized any of those 12 . The passage says there were Baptized but it does not say Paul did it.
The passage clearly says Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Re-baptized ? the passages says they had been baptized Unto John's baptism.

These guys were believers Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

According to some here the Words of Jesus Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. are not enough

We are to believe that Paul was the one who baptized them because it speaks of none other and it was Paul who laid hands upon them after he witnessed to them and they were baptized. And yes, “re-baptized” because Paul clearly told them that their baptism “unto repentance” by John the Baptist was not sufficient for them to receive the Holy Ghost. After being obedient to what Peter had preached in Acts 2:38, they were able to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost as well. The other point is, if God allowed this story to become part of Biblical canon, then we are to understand it as not only an important, but necessary step in the salvation PROCESS. And yes, it IS a process, not just a single act. God’s Word supports this in so many places.
Even John the Baptist clearly stated in Matthew 3:11 that he baptized with water, but that one (Jesus) would come after him who would baptized them with fire and the Holy Spirit.

 

[vhusley]

"Belief" is NEVER "Enough". Faith gifted by God is what gets it done. Then they're baptized as born again believers.

So people are born again BEFORE being baptized? Is that scriptural? Because that doesn’t seem to add up to what I read in God’s Word.

 

[vhusley]

I am glad you asked ...
Jesus set it out clearly for those who want to believe and obey

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born being an old man? can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above.
3:8 The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one born of the Spirit.

Mark 16:15 And he [Jesus] said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16:16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
16:18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
16:20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

One can read how this all comes to fruition in Acts onwards.

Thanks. That’s what I was trying to get at. The fact that baptism of the Holy Spirit IS necessary for salvation. Belief and faith are required for a person to get to that point, but these elements are only the beginning as Jesus points out to Nicodemus. Belief is not enough.

Obviously they hadn't had the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet (see link below for all 5 times this happened)

Infilling vs Baptism in the Holy Spirit

The 120 people in the upper room in Acts 2. The 11 apostles (minus Judas) and Mary were there. Were they saved before this day? The apostles had already been following Jesus for 3 years. Were they ever baptized in the Holy Spirit before this day? OK, so that was the first time for anyone...

www.talkjesus.com

But even though they hadn't been baptized in the Holy Spirit yet, does that mean they weren't saved? Were the 120 people in the upper room (including the 11 apostles) saved before this event?
Pentecostals emphasize that you "should" be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but most don't say it's mandatory.

Jesus himself said it was necessary in His witness to Nicodemus. What does being “born of water and spirit” refer to? It refers to both water and Spirit baptism. And Jesus plainly said we CAN NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven without it.
Those in the upper room came to saving grace between dispensations. Jesus had already “breathed upon” the disciples and imparted to them the Holy Spirit….but the GIFT or outpouring of the Holy Spirit would not occur until the day of Pentecost in the upper room. This is the prophesy of which Joel spoke and of which Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. The Spirit had been imparted to the Apostles for the work they were to carry out, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be for ALL….as Peter stated, “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” -Acts 2:39
So yes, believers today are to seek the Baptism of the Holy Ghost….that is how we receive it. We are not the original Apostles and Jesus is not here in flesh to breath upon us and impart it to us….so we receive it the way the Jews and Gentiles did AFTER the outpouring.

 

[Reba1]

We are to believe that Paul was the one who baptized them because it speaks of none other and it was Paul who laid hands upon them after he witnessed to them and they were baptized. And yes, “re-baptized” because Paul clearly told them that their baptism “unto repentance” by John the Baptist was not sufficient for them to receive the Holy Ghost. After being obedient to what Peter had preached in Acts 2:38, they were able to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost as well. The other point is, if God allowed this story to become part of Biblical canon, then we are to understand it as not only an important, but necessary step in the salvation PROCESS. And yes, it IS a process, not just a single act. God’s Word supports this in so many places.
Even John the Baptist clearly stated in Matthew 3:11 that he baptized with water, but that one (Jesus) would come after him who would baptized them with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Do you not believe what Paul said about who he baptized?

 

[vhusley]

Do you not believe what Paul said about who he baptized?

Absolutely. But in this letter he was speaking only to the church at Corinth ans rebuking them about divisions in the church. He clearly was not talking about his entire ministry. The letter to Corinth was written during his 2nd missionary journey, many years after his encounter with the 12 believers. Paul, in this case is simply reemphasizing humility in his ministry. Because of the Corinthian church being divided and in error on some things, he did not want anyone claiming they were baptized in his name. Never does scripture say he did not baptize, nor does it say he was against it. In fact, he himself was baptized and he encouraged it. We must read scripture in context and “rightly divide the Word of truth.”
either way, whether or not he was the one who actually baptized the 12 is irrelevant to the original point I was attempting to make.

 

[Waggles]

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
I do not read in Act 19 Paul baptized any of those 12 . The passage says there were Baptized but it does not say Paul did it.

That is why peoples get it wrong. They refuse to believe the simplicity of the gospel.
verse 5 clearly reveals that they were baptized again (and the wording is commensurate with other verses on being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
Afterwards Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

Millions of people believe what they read and do it - the result is that millions of people are born from above by water and Spirit and all speak in tongues.
Exactly the same as the first church that began at Pentecost.
So the real issue is; what is stopping people from doing the same??
One gospel , one faith, one doctrine, one baptism, one way.

 

[Reba1]

Double post

 

[Reba1]

That is why peoples get it wrong. They refuse to believe the simplicity of the gospel.
verse 5 clearly reveals that they were baptized again (and the wording is commensurate with other verses on being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
Afterwards Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

Millions of people believe what they read and do it - the result is that millions of people are born from above by water and Spirit and all speak in tongues.
Exactly the same as the first church that began at Pentecost.
So the real issue is; what is stopping people from doing the same??
One gospel , one faith, one doctrine, one baptism, one way.

That is why peoples get it wrong. They refuse to believe the simplicity of the gospel.
verse 5 clearly reveals that they were baptized again (and the wording is commensurate with other verses on being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
Afterwards Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

Millions of people believe what they read and do it - the result is that millions of people are born from above by water and Spirit and all speak in tongues.
Exactly the same as the first church that began at Pentecost.
So the real issue is; what is stopping people from doing the same??
One gospel , one faith, one doctrine, one baptism, one way.

One gospel , one faith, one doctrine, one baptism, one way.


That is why peoples get it wrong. They refuse to believe the simplicity of the gospel.
verse 5 clearly reveals that they were baptized again (and the wording is commensurate with other verses on being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
Afterwards Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

We, The Revival Fellowship, do preach this.
A person MUST be born from above by water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
And everybody in our church has done this.

which of the 2 baptisms you speak of are the ONE?

I Should have been more clear As to the rebaptism they were not being rebaptized in to Christ. Hope that is more clear.

 

[Reba1]

Absolutely. But in this letter he was speaking only to the church at Corinth ans rebuking them about divisions in the church. He clearly was not talking about his entire ministry. The letter to Corinth was written during his 2nd missionary journey, many years after his encounter with the 12 believers. Paul, in this case is simply reemphasizing humility in his ministry. Because of the Corinthian church being divided and in error on some things, he did not want anyone claiming they were baptized in his name. Never does scripture say he did not baptize, nor does it say he was against it. In fact, he himself was baptized and he encouraged it. We must read scripture in context and “rightly divide the Word of truth.”
either way, whether or not he was the one who actually baptized the 12 is irrelevant to the original point I was attempting to make.

I should have been more clear in saying RE-baptized. The were not being rebaptized into Christ. Not sure that is clear.

We must read scripture in context and “rightly divide the Word of truth.”
either way, whether or not he was the one who actually baptized the 12 is irrelevant to the original point I was attempting to make.

Implying the Scriptures says this or that especially when there is evidence , in this case Paul's own words it is not so, is my point .

 

[vhusley]

I should have been more clear in saying RE-baptized. The were not being rebaptized into Christ. Not sure that is clear.
Yes, that is more clear.

Implying the Scriptures says this or that especially when there is evidence , in this case Paul's own words it is not so, is my point .

This is Paul acting and speaking in two entirely different contexts many years apart from one another. We must take this into consideration.

 

[B-A-C]

One baptism into Salvation, yes. But there are at least two baptisms. These are two separate events.

Acts 1:4; Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,”He said, “you heard of from Me;
Acts 1:5; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 8:14; Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been *baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Being baptized in water, doesn't mean you have been baptized in the Spirit.

Matt 3:11; “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Anyone can baptize you in water, but only Jesus can baptize you in the Spirit.

Mark 1:7; And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals.
Mark 1:8; “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 19:1; It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
Acts 19:3; And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:4; Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

The disciples at Ephesus had also already been baptized in water (John's baptism). But they hadn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet.

Luke 3:16; John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

No one was baptized in the Holy Spirit until Jesus ascended back to Heaven. (John the Baptist is an exception, he was born with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb)

John 16:7; “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8; “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

John 7:38; “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[Reba1]

We must? Maybe you must but i will take Paul at his word.

This is Paul acting and speaking in two entirely different contexts many years apart from one another. We must take this into consideration.

 

[Garee]

Millions will agree with you on that motherhood statement.
The problem is complying with scripture which teaches us that Christians were to be baptized in water by full immersion and baptized in the Holy Spirit
with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
And the Spirit-filled church would be a church manifesting the power of God in believers' lives - signs and miracles.
Then there are the nine gifts given to the body of Christ.
But alas those without the Holy Spirit would rather preach another gospel.

The tongue of God is the prophecy of God .. . .nothing more and nothing less.

Believer receive the fullness of grace, the price of redemption from the first hearing of his understanding as he works in us . the end from the beginning. Nothing about leaking out of the spirt and needing a refill of self edification.

1 peter1: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Again no refills needed.

The baptism of the Holy Spirt is reckoned with the metaphor "water of the word". Water like blood is used in parables represent the inspiration of God that does fall like little rain or torrid showers or even dew .The amount or how he baptizes us with the water is not the point of the parables .But again rather water is used to represent the work of the Spirit of Christ in us who do believe as a finished work of Christ's labor of love.

It how he washes or baptizes us through the water of the word . Same kind of baptism Husbands are wash their wives with the doctrines of God . they bring life to green herbs .Green represents a believer.

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James VersionGive ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:


Ephesians 5:24-26 King James Version Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

H20 is clearly used to represent the unseen work of the Holy Spirit.H20 will evaporate and demand a refill of self edification

 

[vhusley]

We must? Maybe you must but i will take Paul at his word.

Okay. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle God’s Word. Refusing to see connections or refusing to examine the context in which the speaker is speaking or the writer is writing would tend to place someone in the latter category.
If someone who didn’t know his life story, were to go through the Psalms of David without understanding the time and context in which each was written, they’d probably come out thinking David was contradicting himself in many places, or at the very least bipolar….and we know neither of those were true.

 

[Reba1]

Okay. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle God’s Word. Refusing to see connections or refusing to examine the context in which the speaker is speaking or the writer is writing would tend to place someone in the latter category.
If someone who didn’t know his life story, were to go through the Psalms of David without understanding the time and context in which each was written, they’d probably come out thinking David was contradicting himself in many places, or at the very least bipolar….and we know neither of those were true.

Refusing to see God's Word is what i read in your posting and you in mine.

 

[vhusley]

Believer receive the fullness of grace, the price of redemption from the first hearing of his understanding as he works in us . the end from the beginning. Nothing about leaking out of the spirt and needing a refill of self edification.

My apologies if I misunderstand you, but are you saying that the Holy Spirit cannot depart from us once He’s filled us or come upon us?

 

[B-A-C]

My apologies if I misunderstand you, but are you saying that the Holy Spirit cannot depart from us once He’s filled us or come upon us?

You will find about half the people here are Calvinist to varying degrees. A number of them believe is OSAS.. (once saved, always saved) this has been debated numerous times here.
Eph 1:14; 2Cor 1:22; and Hebrews 13:5; are often quoted to support this.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So people are born again BEFORE being baptized? Is that scriptural? Because that doesn’t seem to add up to what I read in God’s Word.

Yup - "Baptism" (in water) has nothing to do with Being Born Again by FAITH. It's what you do AFTER being Born Again.

 

[Waggles]

which of the 2 baptisms you speak of are the ONE?

Two acts of baptism make one doctrine - they go together and are mandatory - you must have both and they often occur simultaneously.
Scripture refers to the baptisms of water and Spirit as one baptism > one doctrine of baptism > one way of obedience.
This is not about the numeral one:
Just as God is one is not declaring that there is only 1 person of the Godhead
Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is one - is Jesus disqualifying himself from this arithmetic ??
NO - for God is not 1 in number but one in unison.

Hebrews 6:1 Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us be borne on unto the perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,-
2 the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if only God permit.